Halo Switches, Massdrop, and I:C | This seems a lot...

Sep 14, 2017

This seems a lot like burning someone at the stake before hearing both sides. This was posted, and apparently done before even a hearing. Massdrop can't move as well as a group like input club can as far as posting. Legal ramifications, and what can be said and not on the situation must be considered. And there is also the anti-massdrop group that would love to see support for MD cancel, so they stoke up the flames of the pitchfork carrying villagers.
So, without knowing the specifics, people rush to pillory them. There is an agreement in place- an agreement that I:C signed. They say that "we believe allows us to source the switches for use in keyboards." That's the kind of thing that you get lawyers to put in place an ironclad agreement, and that you know exactly what your rights are. A patent is valuable, and not something you fly by night on nor think nor believe anything about.
Unfortunately, I think there's a lot we'll never know. But I for one, am waiting for Massdrop's response before deciding based on the evidence that is available at that time.

Sep 15, 2017

ChuckDeeI agree with your sentiment. I just think sometimes the best way to get someone's attention is to do something that makes it obvious you would like an answer. One problem with communication platforms is there's no way to accurately gauge how unhappy people are from the text. Canceling an order is pretty direct and, with a given reason, is a fairly clear metric that can be taken to leadership; "Oh guys, 200 people cancelled their orders referencing the Halo Switch issue".
Given how much good will input club has with the keyboard community, I think people have given them the benefit of the doubt.

Sep 15, 2017

yanfaliFrom what I've found out since, I:C tried to go directly to Kailh to source the switch, without consulting with MD, and Kailh said you have to have MD's permission. That shows that there are no _good guys_ in this case. A partner paid for the development costs, and then you go around them to try to backdoor the request based on a *belief*?
Not sure of the veracity of this either. But it just goes to show, it can be spun a number of ways to place blame in either way, and just posting this on a KS update seems a bit like trying to get the community to do exactly what it's done- pillory MD.

Sep 15, 2017

ChuckDeeHopefully there's a peaceful resolution to this situation, massdrop without IC would be a much weaker market place. At this point it's not clear IC even needs MD, so they have nothing to lose.

Dukrous

187

Sep 15, 2017

ChuckDeeCan you cite this source?

Sep 15, 2017

yanfaliWith out hearing both sides and as fast as people have been to react! This honestly could have been blown way out of proportions. IC might not have had the legal right to use the switches the way they planned/wanted.. and seen a way to get back at Massdrop for this! Think about it a single post has caused people to rage hard on Massdrop and over what? We don't even really know whats going on!. That's social media working for ya! People do it all the time! Its easy to use social media to sway peoples opinions and start a witch hunt before all the facts are out there. Knowing its a big company and its going to take time to respond just adds to the fact you can do lots of damage with propaganda regardless of the validity of it.
In this case all that was said was IC couldn't use the switches they where redesigning them. There wording is perfect.. it makes my above theory sound almost ludicrous which I hope it is! But then again IC could have come out and cleared things them selfs instead of letting the community rampage on massdrop non stop.

Dukrous

187

Sep 15, 2017

HotRoderXHow I read it is that Massdrop is the sole provider of Halo switches thanks to the patent grants (which don't exist, they're pending still). When IC went to source switches from Massdrop, Massdrop refused to sell them the switches then started arguing about who owns the name Halo. IC says the name was not signed away, only the manufacturing of the Halos.
So basically, you have the sole vendor of a component attempting to keep the creator of said component from using it in other items they're selling, when the initial agreement was IC would have a license to sell products with that component.

Sep 15, 2017

DukrousThen why decided to make a new product using a new name? Obviously they need to get this sorted quickly! There reputation is on the line with Kickerstarter... this will make our break them as a company... but they sound as thought they just said what ever keep them.. keep the name! This just doesn't add up! We need more information truthfully. I mean if this is as cut and dry black and white.. as you making it sound.. Then why not fight it!

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Dukrous

187

Sep 15, 2017

HotRoderXWell, the name is now in legal dispute...they can't use it. Plus they're not making different Halos, they're making Better Halos, which as long as they avoid the specifics of the patent application they'd be within their rights to do so.
As for fighting it...their post on Kickstarter was the first salvo. Them posting was literally what you're saying...they're fighting it. But they're also not waiting for that to be resolved to get customers the product they paid for because, as you said, their reputation is on the line. Haata, I'm sure, already had ideas on how to improve the Halo Trues and Clears and was probably tinkering with it (because that's what engineers do) but now they have a reason to accelerate the development and testing. Considering they've been through this with the Halo switches already, they likely know how much testing is needed to get the switches ready for manufacturing, hence the five weeks they announced.
It's fairly cut and dried.

Sep 15, 2017

HotRoderXAs someone who builds things for a living I'm usually going to side with a creator. If this is a case of shenanigans by IC how long do you think it's going to take before people find out. If that happens their personal and professional reputations would be worthless.
MD needs to make a statement. As a creator if I make something for hire it belongs to my employer. If on the other hand I collaborate with capital to bring a new product to market then I would have different expectations. If, as has been posited, mass drop owns all rights to the Halo switch, a simple phone call to kalih granting permission to use the design would have sufficed.
Maybe there's bad blood between the two organizations now since IC launched a successful Kickstarter. Part of the motivation of IC for the KS whitefox was to have greater control over the production process. This already points to divisions between the two organizations.
Like I said in my earlier post, I hope they resolve their differences and keep supplying us keeb fans with great products.

Sep 15, 2017

yanfaliIt's never that simple. There's contracts involved. This should have been resolved *before* the kickstarter and their rights should have been secured *before* signing the contracts. They had a lawyer look over the papers before signing- and signed. As much as it seems that it would be easy just to phone to give the rights, they have to protect their rights also. Would even that phone call void their rights? It really depends on the contract and the nature of the assignment. Not a easy morass to navigate after the fact, and you don't navigate that based on someone else's timetable. The post on the kickstarter starts to seem more and more disingenuous when you take a complete look at the situation, taking out what you think and feel, and just looking at the facts as laid out.

Sep 15, 2017

ChuckDeeI think it's pointless at this point to guess further, unless they go to court and we find out what happened in discovery.
Anecdata, Valley lawyers a notoriously crafty. I've had to amend employeement contracts that attempted to assign all my rights as a creator to my employer. This is illegal in the state of CA, but not in other states. I would not be surprised if IC entered into a gentlepersons agreement naively and then found out the truth post the negotiation. Not everyone can afford 400usd an hour lawyers. VC backed companies certainly can and do.

zndr

596

Sep 15, 2017

yanfaliI'm with you on protecting creators, but this is the most one sided statement by IC it hurts me to read as a former MD employee. I'm really really disappointed with the amount of ownership they are claiming in the design and work.

Sep 15, 2017

yanfaliAs I found out in my own business dealings, if you can't afford the lawyers, don't enter into agreements. Paying $2000 or more on the lawyer is cheap compared to litigating after the fact. They had legal agreements, and legal representation. Putting the onus on MD in that manner (through a KS post) for their lack of knowledge as to what they signed isn't cool.

Sep 15, 2017

ChuckDeeI think you're being unnecessarily harsh. Everyone should be allowed to make mistakes and regret them. It's how we learn. I understand you are in massdrop's corner but you don't have to be unpleasant about it. When you have asymmetric power and you choose to use it, you must be prepared for blow back. If what you suggest actually happened and IC simply had bad lawyers that would indicate an ethical dilemma for all future creators on the platform.

Sep 15, 2017

yanfaliI'm not being harsh, nor in MD's corner, as I stated on Google+. I'm looking at the facts as we know it. And I'm not stating anything about the lawyers, other than the fact that if you need to have contract law, you can't depend on the other party- but have to cover your own butt. And this should have been clarified and taken care of before the kickstarter, not put out in the town square on the kickstarter updates, giving a one-sided update. It's just the reality of doing business, and the community leaders have little input on that- it's MD corporate and there's a lot out there that they don't have control over. MD isn't a singular entity, and to expect that a legal department is going to not enforce their contracts to be nice is an unreasonable expectation and frankly naive. Yanbo et al are not the issue here. And to equate MD with them is folly, which is what Matt3o was saying in dealing with them. You're dealing with a corporate entity, so there's going to be a measure of creative and design choices that you have to make compromises on because of legal realities. And that's what we're running into here.
Perhaps we should just agree to disagree (as you've already said you're in I:C's corner before even hearing from MD on the issue- I'm holding reservation and arguing a side based on facts and realities and If you think thats 'being unpleasant' in this, then perhaps we shouldn't be having this conversation). Thanks for the discourse up until now.

Sep 15, 2017

ChuckDeeAgreed, thanks for your thoughtful posts.

Sep 15, 2017

yanfaliThis is harsh but the reality of the world. I:C is learning it the hard way. Honestly I hate the way people are cuddled now day's in High School and even College. Want to know how multi.. million dollar companies exist! cause there willing to fight for whats there's and they don't forgive if someone makes a mistake. The sad funny crazy crappy thing is. There so many people that hate on these major companies!.. yet what would these people do if they didn't exist? I mean seriously.. look at what MD done to the over all mech community! its bloomed blossomed because of them. MD has brought in tons of new people! Its given others a safe secure way to sell there products!.. .. Its kinda sad honestly. These people talking about will we can organize our own group buys are dreaming. They wouldn't be as big.. and they be more prone to fail.. unless its a major company handling the logistics....
This is the stats from GMK Nautilus Total Amount Spent 246,295.37 pre shipping cause I don't know what shipping cost would be ((Edited to Add that Tidbit in)) Total Number of Sets sold 4,006
Suddenly you take influx of 246,295.37 cents into your paypal! and your going to most likely raise major flags on your paypal/bank account.. so once that sorted.. then you gotta work out how your going to pay the key company.. then you gotta work out shipping for 4,006 sets.. and work out international shipping cost... plus work out who getting what.. sort thought 4,006 sets to make sure there no defects! cause lets be honest if someone gets 2 of a single key its you who there going to be dragging thought the mud not MD. Once you done all that your still responsible for packages lost etc etc..
I would assume you want some type of insurance to protect you!. This is just for a key set! I am sorry but yea need both sides.
sorry kinda got off topic but this things really frustrating.

Sep 15, 2017

HotRoderXFair points, but massdrop is a nexus for creators and enthusiasts. Killing your golden goose, metaphorically speaking, has side effects. The entire system depends on good will from all sides.
If creators stop coming to MD with projects because they fear getting out lawyered... Then MD becomes another undifferentiated market place with off the shelf novelties. Part of the allure of MD is the bespoke, artisinal nature of their offerings. If you build a reputation of being a hard charging and bargaining partner that's going to have chilling effects on small time creators.
The side effects I already see are no Kira coming to MD. There were at least 3 projects being planned by thesiscamper in the Kira family that I am aware of, and now they don't come to MD.

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Sep 15, 2017

yanfaliThat could be there lose I wish them the best but they have to weight things! Target market vs Projected sales! Perhaps this will even work in there favor then! Cause if your going to sell fewer of a product you can charge more and produce a more quality product! vs mass production.
Thats one thing if your a creator you have to look at on top of everything else I mentioned is can you make it on your own with lower exposure rates? I mean take me for instance I never heard of Kira.. or thesiscamper either one. Unless I catch them on Geekhack or maybe reddit I would never know they existed. I am sure there are TONS and TONS of people who are like that. I came to Massdrop then branched out. I am sure there are people who come to massdrop and never branch out from there thought.. so as a creator I have to weight risk vs reward.. risk is I use MD something could happen there a company there going to protect there own assets and IP first... mine second but the trade off is I get massive exposure!. Vs I go on my own use reddit some forums... etc... and will... I not getting the same exposure I was.
Also financially I am on my own. There a issue or something happens I am screwed. Lets say the Kira board starts getting built and suddenly there producer has a major issue or a tsunami hits or 100 million other things happened that have 1/billion chance of happening but are still a risk your left having to figure out how to pay for refunds for all those people... vs its on MD head there taking the finance risk. These money amounts people are spending are not something to be taken lightly by the community. There is some serious money trading hands. There some serious risk to boot.. special when it comes to America and lawsuits!.. that doesn't even take into account customs etc etc... as far as shipping over seas or customs coming into America you gotta deal with customs with commercial orders if not mistaken.

Sep 15, 2017

HotRoderXWell good luck on your journey through keyboards, it's a great hobby. I am glad I've made you aware of thesiscamper, he and his collaborators design beautiful things. Search Google, it's well worth the time.