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SpartanChick
11
Dec 8, 2017
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So what would be a good all around kitchen knife for the novice to kitchen knives? I've really grown frustrated with the constant dull knives in our house. It's not that the knives are inherently bad but they don't stay sharp ever. Most are old anyway and I believe my mom never invested in high end knives because my father always used to do weird things with them. It's a different story today and I'm trying to figure out what to get to fix this problem. Is it the knives themselves? Do I just need to learn and acquire better sharpening tools?
Dec 8, 2017
AngryAccountant
277
Dec 8, 2017
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SpartanChickGrab a lansky or other cheap guided sharpener, get it to a shaving your hair off sharp and see how long it lasts from there. Make sure the knives aren't being used on glass, stone, or bamboo cutting boards. Hardwood and plastic are ok. Make sure people aren't trying to cut frozen meat or bones or anything else very hard, as that'll damage the blades as well. Use a honing rod every other time you cook, and see if that helps. If all this fails, then invest in a better grade steel chefs knife. Much loss of sharpness is due to mishandling, if you can eliminate that, it'll go a long way. If all this doesn't get you where you want your blades, perhaps then invest in some new stuff.
Dec 8, 2017
namhod
1991
Dec 8, 2017
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AngryAccountantImportant addition. Never ever ever put them in the dishwasher.
Dec 8, 2017
SpartanChick
11
Dec 8, 2017
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AngryAccountantGood to know. Just a wood or plastic board here. No bamboo, which is I ever see in the store now. I did pick up a honing rod with a knew chefs knife. (not super expensive or anything.) Was great at first but now my mom keeps using it and it gets pretty dull. Nothing like the other knives but still pretty bad. This should help maybe. Lol.. @namhodLuckily, or unluckily rather... We don't have a dishwasher.
Dec 8, 2017
Friedumpling
46
Dec 8, 2017
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SpartanChickAll Knives will dull over time with use, even if you factor all the great tips from the other commenters. If you don’t want to sharpen, see if you can find a place that sharpens locally. I’ve have been finding tons of locally owned chefs supply stores that offer the service for a small fee. Worth.
Dec 8, 2017
AngryAccountant
277
Dec 8, 2017
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SpartanChickWork on your technique too (and moms!), might be something like dragging the edge to scrape the food off cutting board, when you should use the back of the knife, or twisting when you cut, which can bend the edge out of shape. A knife skills class would likely go a long way and is usually fun to do with someone else. Many of the higher end grocery stores or kitchen stores offer a knife skills 101 class (and other cooking classes), such as Whole Foods or Sur La Table. There's likely more affordable options as well in your area.
Dec 8, 2017
namhod
1991
Dec 8, 2017
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AngryAccountant^^^ This 100%. I hate watching friends and relatives pick up the cutting board and scrape chopped things into a pot or pan with the cutting edge. Use the spine of the knife!
Also as far as honing you can use one of those pull through sharpeners (NEVER THE COARSE SIDE) on the "fine" side, or ceramic side. Very lightly no pressure just pull the knife through and the ceramic rods will fix any rolled edges and maintain the edge about as well as a steel does.
Dec 8, 2017
SpartanChick
11
Dec 8, 2017
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AngryAccountantYeah I've been looking into some kind of class locally but haven't found much yet. There's a nice store that sells kitchen tools that I have yet to stop by. Training my mom I think is the hardest part... So many things are so ingrained at this point. Like using the chefs on literally everything... Plus this has all been pretty useful and I like the conversation so far. I've asked in other places, but rarely get such responses.
@namhod I will admit I have done that a few times before I realized it wasn't a very good idea on so many levels. I still see my mom scraping the sharp side across the boards sometimes. ;_;
Dec 8, 2017
AngryAccountant
277
Dec 8, 2017
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SpartanChickCheck community colleges too, sometimes they have shorter cooking classes if they have a culinary program. Training ingrained things out is going to be difficult, but if you can convince her to go to a class (with you, mothers day?) and have them tell it, in my experience people tend to take a professional's "opinion" more than their kid's on this kind of thing.
Regarding grabbing a chef's knife for everything, it isn't really a bad tendency. Its the right tool for the job probably 90% of time in the kitchen. Though if bones or frozen meats are an issue, a Cleaver is really the only option. Have the cleaver be the damage sponge while the chefs knife stays the scalpel for precision cutting work. If its a good bit heavier than the chefs knife, that might help convince that its the correct tool for the harder jobs, and keep the chef's knife waiting for the other stuff.
Dec 8, 2017
namhod
1991
Dec 8, 2017
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SpartanChickWho hasn't? Typically we as humans have to do things wrong before we are either taught how or figure out how to do it right!
You can always google knife sharpening in a big town near you. Send em in one at a time so you still have knives to work with. Then work on changing habits and learning to maintain.
Like @AngryAccountant said, just grab a Lansky kit. $30 on Amazon. Then sit down and watch some YouTube videos. You will be getting professional results in no time.
That is the route I would go. Especially since it sounds like your moms habits will be virtually impossible to fix. So learning how to sharpen yourself is the best bet.
Dec 8, 2017
AngryAccountant
277
Dec 8, 2017
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namhodAnd @SpartanChick, there's another thread I started, asking how people teach their SO's and whatnot not to abuse their knives, and one of the consistent things coming up was keeping your knives to yourself, and giving them "lesser" knives to use. So a personal chef's knife that your mother won't use/abuse might be a way to go if all else fails.
Dec 8, 2017
SpartanChick
11
Dec 8, 2017
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AngryAccountantI didn't even think about mothers day... That's actually a great idea but our lives are always pretty busy here. Its going to be hard enough getting something lined up for both us to be able to go. lol. Think I'll write that one down though. strangely I haven't seen our clever in awhile... I know we had one. It's just a weird assortment of random knives from over the years and I may just have to clear it out and figure out where we are at. It hasn't been done in awhile.

@namhod It's a little strange I've seen professional chefs also that with the knives. Use the sharp edged side to slide the cut veggies into their hand. I suppose maybe they aren't scraping it against the board but there is no way to really tell in most tv shows and stuff. So it doesn't help young chefs or people actually interested in cooking understand how to maintain the knives. Not that a show for entertainment is supposed to do that but I've seen it from chefs even on youtube cooking in a professional manner.
Dec 8, 2017
AngryAccountant
277
Dec 8, 2017
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SpartanChickClear it out with a magnetic rack, they're probably the #1 best way to store knives, safe, easy to see, keeps em dry, gives you more drawer (or countertop if you're using a block) space, and protects the blade from getting dinged up in the drawer!
Dec 8, 2017
ChefMitch1138
11
Dec 8, 2017
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SpartanChickVictorinox knives are excellent quality at a reasonable price. Use the exposed stoneware at the bottom of a coffee mug for sharpening if you don't want to shell out for a whetstone.
Dec 8, 2017
A community member
Dec 8, 2017
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AngryAccountantNo, no, no. Glass or stone cutting surfaces will dull your knife almost instantly. Both are harder or as hard as steel. The softer surface always gives in to the harder.
Dec 8, 2017
AngryAccountant
277
Dec 8, 2017
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Wait did I recommend a glass or Stone cutting board somewhere?
Dec 8, 2017
SpartanChick
11
Dec 10, 2017
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AngryAccountantNot that I saw? Regardless I looked through amazon, kind of hard choice? Everything is labeled for pros and stuff. Not that I can't get more informed. I mean youtubers have filled every question someone might have about something by now. . We've been busy here with christmas cleaning if you will. lol. I think when few people are home I will try to gather up all the kitchen knives we have just to see how ridiculous it is. Gonna be fun. XD
@ChefMitch1138 I did notice a nice looking set from them. Victorinox. Cheaper on amazon than here oddly enough.
Dec 10, 2017
Slomomofo
13
Dec 10, 2017
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SpartanChickEveryone here has given reaaly good advice. As far as how to prevent dulling of knives and your concern about sharpness: the way the knife has been handled during cooking/prep is important. All other comments cover pretty much everything. I am jumping in because you have an issue with how dull the knives get and concern on how they are maintained. One thing I believe has been overlooked is how the knife is treated from the board to sink. Never have a knife thrown/ dropped/ left in a sink. Treating a knife like a common fork is more common than most people realize. It is easy for someone to place the knife in the sink and damage the edge by placing items on or around it. Always clean the knife seperate from the rest of the dishes. Never let it sit and come in contact with other items sitting around in a sink.
Dec 10, 2017
guvnor
735
Dec 12, 2017
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AngryAccountantDragging/scraping with the edge is not worth concerning about.
In commercial settings the cutting board can be very large and heavy, which means you're scooping up the ingredients you chopped and not sliding them off the edge of the board like some might do at home.
Scraping/scooping up with the spine not only doesn't work very well, it's also less safe especially when you're not the only one in the kitchen.
This is a relatively new complaint from home chefs with OCDs, as I've never once met a professional chef from Japanese to Western cuisine that doesn't scrape(and even twist/pry) with the edge in the kitchen. Chefs are worried about getting meals out to customers in a timely fashion, not preserving the edge for the sake of not sharpening as often. Most chefs will sharpen the edge before their shift begins anyway.
Sharpen a knife when it's dull, but don't be afraid to use a knife as it needs to be used.
Dec 12, 2017
Fourday
131
Dec 12, 2017
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SlomomofoVery happy you voiced the special attention and sink loitering. As long as the knives are made to be the priority in the kitchen, the rest of the concerns should non-issue.
Dec 12, 2017
Fourday
131
Dec 12, 2017
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SpartanChickStart with a decent knife, learn how to use a stone and a steel. Treat the knife with TLC and it should all come together. If you have a good cutlery shop nearby, they can help steer you towards a good knife. Brands like Global, Forschner and the like are a good start. For a stone, a good Arkansas Stone is hard to beat and any name brand steel should work just fine.
Best of luck.
Dec 12, 2017
Hdsheena
1
Dec 12, 2017
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SpartanChickIf you can find a good sharpener (person, not tool) they can work with you to sharpen the knife to match your needs. There are trade-offs in the shape of the edge, for what you get in absolutely sharpness, vs how often you'll need to hone. But, finding someone who will work with you can be tricky. Look for someone who works with hunting knives
Dec 12, 2017
sc_fd
48
Dec 12, 2017
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SpartanChickFind a *good* sharpener in your area (can be very location dependent) Learn to sharpen For stainless, Victorinox for me about kicks off the level of knives I'd consider would be worth learning to sharpen to maintain for a long time. Tojiro DP for a good step up in edge retention if you and others in the household can be trusted to use a knife that is less tolerant of negligent or abusive use (frozen foods, metal on metal, dishwasher, large bones, tossing into sink, etc.)
I went deep into sharpening to ensure the dull knife scenario never happens again
Dec 12, 2017
SpartanChick
11
Dec 12, 2017
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HdsheenaYeah I thought it would give me something to do/talk about with my nephew but he didn't seem that interested when it was brought up before. Sharpening knives on a wet stone is something he learned to do.
@Fourday @Slomomofo I can say with honesty that the sink is not so much an issue. Granted she leaves the knives behind the faucet which I don't agree with but they are never in the sink getting dishes put on them or anything. I also got her to lay the knives down either on the dish rack or the drying pad thing I got. Honestly our kitchen is very small. There's just enough space for two people to cook inside and even that's pushing it. I have been looking into the magnetic wall mount for awhile but there is just no space. It's something I have to measure and put a lot of thought into it's location before I do it.
@guvnor I'm glad you came in and said that about the knife scraping. I watched some more stuff and actually paid attention to it and yes. No real chef takes the time to turn the knife around and do often sharpen the knife before use. That's from random youtube videos and stuff from TV. Their cutting boards are often just too big and heavy to lift.
I hope it's cool we are still going in this conversation thread. I'm sort of enjoying the conversation. Been meaning to look over the other threads more as well but it's a topic that's been on my mind for a few months with no real outlet.
Dec 12, 2017
namhod
1991
Dec 13, 2017
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guvnor"Chefs are worried about getting meals out to customers in a timely fashion, not preserving the edge for the sake of not sharpening as often. Most chefs will sharpen the edge before their shift begins anyway."
That statement is a perfect supporting reason for not scraping with the blade edge. Most home gamers are not going to sharpen their knife frequently, hell even frequent honing is unlikely in most home kitchens. Preserve that edge as long as you can.
Safety? Kitchens are generally an unsafe place.
Dec 13, 2017
guvnor
735
Dec 13, 2017
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namhodIt's ridiculous to think scraping with the edge to gather and scoop up the ingredients onto the blade on a cutting board dulls the edge any more than actually cutting/chopping up the ingredients on the board.
Nothing but an OCD mindset from collector types who don't want to use their knives in fear their resale value will drop, as they enjoy romanticizing knives more than actually using knives.
Dec 13, 2017
AngryAccountant
277
Dec 13, 2017
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guvnorThere's two kinds of scraping. If you're holding the knife 90 degrees to the cutting board, and dragging the edge across, you're folding the edge over, dulling the knife. If you've got the whole knife close to the surface of the board, say at a 10 degree angle, that's usually absolutely fine. The reason the OCD among us say not to drag is because usually people are somewhere between, but closer to 90 than not, causing damage. Ergonomically then, it makes sense to just flip the blade and use the back instead of insisting someone hold the knife very differently to scrape.
A good cutting board such as end grain hardwood or a softer HDPE isn't damaging the blade because its not moving the edge in a direction of weakness. The end grain hardwoods actually open a bit and are sliced by the knife, then "self repair". The plastics are cut minimally, hence not damaging.
Dec 13, 2017
guvnor
735
Dec 13, 2017
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AngryAccountantNo, it doesn't make sense ergonomically. The reason why people scrape/scoop is because that's the most natural/efficient thing to do. The reason why they continue to do it is because any dulling of the edge is negligible and not worth the time of day to even ponder about.
Dec 13, 2017
namhod
1991
Dec 13, 2017
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guvnorRolling the edge on a 17° angle is a lot easier than you think. Scrape if you want. I am no collector, all of my kitchen knives have been with me for years and have the battle scars to prove it.
Being nice to your edge means less sharpening, less sharpening means a longer life for your knife. If I invest in decent quality products I want them to last.
Dec 13, 2017
guvnor
735
Dec 13, 2017
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namhodChef knives that get used all day and sharpened everyday will still outlast most restaurants and chefs regardless of pretentious details like whether they scraped with it or not.
Dec 13, 2017
Fourday
131
Dec 13, 2017
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guvnorAre we talking about sharpening or running the blade across a steel?
Dec 13, 2017
guvnor
735
Dec 13, 2017
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FourdaySharpening. The majority of my experience is based in Asian cuisine where a honing steel(or a strop) is almost never used; instead a very fine grit stone to regularly maintain the edge.
Dec 13, 2017
sc_fd
48
Dec 13, 2017
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guvnorI would think it makes sense physically and geometrically that impacts head-on to a V edge behind which a very deliberate bevel and grind are made vs scraping laterally across the edge apex could introduce different stressors and wear patterns
Dec 13, 2017
guvnor
735
Dec 13, 2017
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sc_fdIt does, on a negligible level where your time is better spent worrying about other things like creating a better meal.
Dec 13, 2017
namhod
1991
Dec 13, 2017
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guvnorYou salty bro. Scrape if ya want, don't scrape if ya want. Merry Christmas!
Dec 13, 2017
sc_fd
48
Dec 13, 2017
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guvnorCertainly, I've heard scraping unpleasant sounding enough where I would question how negligible it could be... This thing is really hard to discuss over the internet where each individual could have a vastly different subjective standard for acceptable sharpness, cutting feel, affect on end result, and how much wear he/she will tolerate from possibly unnecessary actions.
Dec 13, 2017
guvnor
735
Dec 13, 2017
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namhod" Scrape if ya want, don't scrape if ya want."
Yes, that is my point.
Salty, are those who need to dictate to others how a tool should be used.
Personally, I prefer umami.
Dec 13, 2017
guvnor
735
Dec 13, 2017
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sc_fdDoes the knife still cut after scraping? If it does, it's negligible.
Dec 13, 2017
AngryAccountant
277
Dec 13, 2017
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guvnorIs scraping good for the knife? If it's not, then it's not a "best practice". Sure, it might be something that can be ignored, but the original discussion was about how @SpartanChick was bothered by dull knives. In the course of the conversation, scraping came up, it can be worse on certain knives, surfaces, etc, but a surefire way to make it a nonissue is just don't do it. Even if it could be negligible, which I'd argue it's not, why risk it?
Dec 13, 2017
namhod
1991
Dec 13, 2017
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guvnorSomeone asked for suggestions. Suggestions were given.
Your argument is that it doesn't have a noticeable affect. Sure to someone who sharpens their knife before every use, or even hones before every use. I agree. For everyone else. Who sharpens maybe a couple times a year, the average person probably less. I think scraping blade down, say into a pot or pan from a board you are holding above, does have an affect. The first time? Maybe slightly, but the fiftieth time?
Engines will run without oil, that doesn't mean you should. You don't have to vacuum your carpet, most things will get ground into it over time and you won't notice. If a door hinge is squeaky don't bother with oil, it won't affect the performance.
That's how your argument is coming across. Immediately calling people "collectors", pretentious, or OCD, and telling people to focus on making their meal taste better when sharpening and keeping knives sharp was the discussion... Very helpful, and not making your argument seem more valid at all.
Dec 13, 2017
namhod
1991
Dec 13, 2017
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guvnorAlso. After scrolling up. I love that you go back and edit posts after the fact. Have a nice day. :)
Dec 13, 2017
guvnor
735
Dec 13, 2017
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AngryAccountantIf scraping is affecting an edge to that degree, then I would guess it's the knife; either really low-end steel, bad heat treating, or got too hot during initial grinding of the edge during productionthat caused the edge to go soft and needs to have some material removed before reaching the still hardened portion of the steel.
Dec 13, 2017
guvnor
735
Dec 13, 2017
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namhodI only edited my last post to you to add "Personally, I prefer umami."
I also edit my posts to correct any noticeable grammar or spelling mistakes.
Passive aggressive much?
Dec 13, 2017
Fourday
131
Dec 13, 2017
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namhodCall me strange, if I were to pick a person to sharpen my knives, I would pick the one with OCD. :-)
Dec 13, 2017
guvnor
735
Dec 13, 2017
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FourdayYou should sharpen your own knives then.
Dec 13, 2017
AngryAccountant
277
Dec 13, 2017
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FourdayHi, I'll sharpen for ya, $1.25/inch.
Dec 13, 2017
AngryAccountant
277
Dec 13, 2017
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guvnorConsidering she didn't know the steel type or really even the origin of the knives in question, then sure, entirely possible. Test this though, grab a cheaper or mystery metal kitchen knife that's due for a sharpening, get it how you like it, do a few test cuts and then scrape it across a cutting board a few times and see how it cuts without honing or sharpening in between. Scrape it 60 times to simulate a month of doing it twice a night.
Dec 13, 2017
guvnor
735
Dec 13, 2017
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AngryAccountantI already stated it's probably the fault of the knife and its steel, not sure what testing a bad knife would add.
If you want to spend your own time for testing to validate your point, feel free to do so.
Dec 13, 2017
Fourday
131
Dec 13, 2017
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AngryAccountantThanks, got that covered... Must be the OCD.....
Dec 13, 2017
AngryAccountant
277
Dec 13, 2017
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Fourdayheh ya, definitely the OCD
Dec 13, 2017
namhod
1991
Dec 13, 2017
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Fourday@AngryAccountant
It could also be your pretentiousness. Dunno if that is a factor. Maybe you should focus on your OCD to make your collection better.
Dec 13, 2017
AngryAccountant
277
Dec 13, 2017
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namhodCould be, apparently I've got that in spades... I'm modest too.
Dec 13, 2017
SpartanChick
11
Dec 14, 2017
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AngryAccountantGot a little heated here. Interesting to see though.
Dec 14, 2017
AngryAccountant
277
Dec 14, 2017
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SpartanChickYeah, one might say we got close to losing our temper (haha, temper, like steel...)
Dec 14, 2017
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