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AvionNDVR
344
Nov 19, 2017
I might have to pick up one of these for myself. I've seen them on eBay but always thought I should wait for a review.
Mind linking me where you bought this?
Gugliermo
1317
Nov 19, 2017
AvionNDVRHi Avion, I had heard of them years ago myself but had no idea what bargains they really are. After reading Tom Adelstein's articles I was brave enough to try it...(-; Very glad I did. Along with Aragon, I think it's about the best bang for buck available. But it's not that they are "a good watch for the money" they are very good watches period. If this had the name swiss on it and a fancier strap you would think it a good deal at 7 times the price. I dealt with the seller greenstars0614 on the Bay. I wrote them first asking if these were the premium Seagull movements with the blue screws and ornamented rotor and plate work and they assured me they were. That is what I got. Should be well under $100. I have no connection with any sellers of course, just one watch lover to another. You can also look at the main Parnis website, they are 20% more, but there is tremendous choice. Good luck!
PetrosD
3702
Nov 19, 2017
GugliermoToo bad they don't make a true Moonphase. They have one in the classic collection I would jump on if it were.
Cruisedave
158
Nov 20, 2017
PetrosDThat is one gorgeous looking watch. Wow!
boozed
297
Nov 20, 2017
PetrosDBut they do make a true moonphase! There's even one in this marine chronometer style, with a grande date at 12 and moonphase/small seconds at 6. The colour options are black dial with silver numerals or white dial with blued numerals.
I managed to pick up a handful of these Parnis models from various ebay sellers, each for around US$60 shipped, from no-reserve auctions.
Chaturanga
126
Nov 20, 2017
AvionNDVRI think better is buying from their official store on Aliexpress., or from their website which is https://parnis.org/
boozed
297
Nov 20, 2017
ChaturangaThat's one of many websites "officially" selling Parnis watches. Interestingly enough, parnis.org doesn't carry any of these Portuguese clones...
I suspect parnis.org is owned by whichever wag decided to register the Parnis trademark. However, the Parnis "brand" significantly predates that event, and the watches come from all over. I understand they first appeared as an attempt to legitimise fake Panerais.
I had a bunch of bookmarks for Parnis sellers from a couple of years ago, but the only two that are still alive are militarytimewatch.com and manbushijie.com (the others all had "parnis" in the name...!) I've used the former (when it was still known as jacksontse.com) but can't vouch for the latter personally. Manbushijie currently has variants of the watch photographed by Gugliermo for US$72 shipped, which isn't too bad. Budget for a new strap, though...
I'm happy to stick to eBay. There's the potential for good deals if you're patient, and it has better customer protection.
Chaturanga
126
Nov 20, 2017
boozedSo, you mean parnis.org is not an official store or there is no official seller?
Gugliermo
1317
Nov 20, 2017
PetrosDHi Petros, I think they do make a true moonphase, check out the Parnis main website. Good luck.
Cloaca
1906
Nov 20, 2017
boozedI was going to investigate them, but Wikipedia beat me to it. Go to Wikipedia to read it in a legible format. Basically, a Chinese company with an odd retail business model. Movements are mostly Seagull it says. Oddly, the factory is Sun Time, and the other big Chinese outfit, Dartmouth, which puts out Avi-8 and others, is Solar Time. Dartmouth seems to stick with Japanese movements though.
Parnis Watches From Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaPARNIS Watches IndustryWatchFounded2005HeadquartersHong Kong, ChinaProductsMechanical watches, mechanical watch partsParentParnis Watch Co.Divisionswww.parnis.orgParnis Watch Co. is a watch brand sold primarily in Europe and the United States. Xiao Jian Hong (Guangzhou, China) owns the trademarks and has been responsible for the expansion of the brand since 2005. PARNIS markets its products through its official website (www.parnis.org) and through multiple other online channels including several resellers and distributors operating on eBay and Amazon. [1][2][3][4] Suntime Watch Company markets the Parnis brand through regional distributors, while Pa Jie markets to large clients and customers wanting to outsource watch production. The manufacturing facilities remain in Tong De Wei, Guangzhou while the main Office has been relocated to Hong Kong to support its international growth (2017).[5]Parnis Automatic with Power ReservePARNIS uses Seagull movements in their popular models.[6] With the exception of its domestic sellers in China, the company sells its products on-line primarily through its official website, as well as on eBay and Amazon, by partnering with multiple different resellers and distributors.[7][8]Parnis designs their watches, contracts for the parts, assembles the watches and plans quality control.[9] The manufacturing facility in Tong De Wei, Guangzhou assembles parts from various vendors. Fu Yuan Xin Watch Product Factory manufacturers the cases and movements are furnished by Sea-Gull, Miyota and Dixmont.[10]Parnis uses 316L military grade stainless steel cases made with conventional machine processes instead of metal injection molding. As a result, Parnis cases have the tensile strength of competitive watch brands. For example, only Rolex exceeds the 316L standard with its use of 904 grade stainless steel. Rolex's closest competitor, Omega, uses 316L military grade stainless steel. A majority of stainless steel watches follow the 304 standard, which are anti-magnetic, but lack the tensile strength required for use in high pressure environments.[11]The company has a unique distribution system. It wholesales watches and parts to its distributors, while providing services of a fulfillment house. Supply chain management professionals call this drop shipping.[12]Parnis does not maintain traditional brick and mortar stores or boutiques; however, you can find shops in manufacturers' outlets like the Guangzhou Watches Wholesale Market where Suntime Watch Co. Ltd, does maintain a mall store). It's located at Shop A026, NO. 61, West Station Road (ZhanXi Road), Guangzhou, China.[13][14]
Gugliermo
1317
Nov 20, 2017
CloacaHi Cloaca, well, I wouldn't call it a "weird" business model, I'd call it a highly successful one that is based on a 30% profit margin compared to the 300+% profit margin throughout most of the West's established watch industry. China produced 98% of the world's watches last year but took in only 48% of the revenue. Some of the Swiss are seeing the writing on the wall and have reduced their prices considerably.
Gugliermo
1317
Nov 20, 2017
ChaturangaParnis.org IS the official website, other dealers and distributors may have the name Parnis in their logo or website but this is the official one.
PetrosD
3702
Nov 20, 2017
GugliermoI had seen this one, but I think that's just an am/pm window, like on Orient, and not a true Moonphase. https://parnis.org/collections/classic/products/parnis-watches-classic-r
Cloaca
1906
Nov 20, 2017
GugliermoHmmm, I may end up buying something of theirs. This skeleton watch may scratch my skeleton itch, and with sapphire it's really cheap:
https://parnis.org/products/force-mg
I wonder if it's hacking and windable.
Aragon's Evo scratched my "super heavy and thick chunk of steel" itch for only $160. It could use better hands and sapphire, but it's one of my favorite watches.
Gugliermo
1317
Nov 20, 2017
PetrosDI think you're right. I guess that's a lot of complication for the money..(-;
Gugliermo
1317
Nov 20, 2017
CloacaThe skeleton is definitely windable as it's a hand winder, the Asian 6497 skeletonised movement...(-; It's not hackable though. That Aragon is a beautifully made massive watch, personally I love a hefty watch. The weight disappears after a few days wearing, besides, it's good training for single hand pistol practice as I'm a lefty...(-; You won't go wrong with either or both of those choices. Enjoy!
Cloaca
1906
Nov 21, 2017
GugliermoI have the Evo in 45 mm in black on a black bracelet and love it. I was considering going crazy and getting a 50-mm one in raw stainless, but the only colors left on sale are pretty weird. I'm open to any color, but the particular shades of the Evos don't appeal to me. Wing needs to get somebody else's input on color.
But I love the ridiculously tall bezel with the helical ridges on the side.
Cloaca
1906
Nov 21, 2017
GugliermoThe Asian 6497 means a Chinese clone of the ETA 6497?
The ETA 6497 is used in the Los Angeles-made Weiss handwinder field watch, and Weiss also cloned the movement, hilariously doubling the price for the version with their clone. Only the mainspring comes from Switzerland.
But I was under the impression that the ETA 6497 was hackable.
Apparently ETA is cutting off supply of the 6497 and Weiss is thinking of becoming a movement supplier via a sister company.
boozed
297
Nov 21, 2017
ChaturangaWhat I mean is that I don't think there's an "official" website. If there ever was, parnis.org probably isn't it, since it was created in February this year.
From Ric Capucho's "Buying a Parnis?" thread on the Watchuseek forums: "Firstly, let's get something straight; Parnis is not a true brand, even if it's now been trademarked by a guy in Guangzhou. It's a group of Cantonese factories and competing dealers making similar watches, at a similar cost, using similar recipes. To talk of a Parnis is a bit like talking (forgive the parallel) talking about cakes. I love a black forest gateau, and often order it after a hearty restaurant meal. Sometimes it's great, sometimes not so great. On one occasion (in Munich, funnily enough) it was utter crap.
Same concept, same or similar recipe, different cooks in different restaurants, sounds the same, but the product differs dramatically. Parnis is not a brand; it's a class of watches, mainly made in the Guangzhou area of China, where there's a nest of different factories with the wherewithal to make almost any watch you care to imagine, simply by assembling freely available parts."
He does go on to recommend against buying on eBay, but all of the eBay Parnises I've bought were much cheaper than the recognised websites and are still operating just fine. You pays your money and you takes your chances.
Cloaca
1906
Nov 21, 2017
boozedI don't know if this was linked to before, so as a memo to self:
Tom Adelstein's researched and sourced article on the Parnis factory and trademarks: http://www.asian-watches.com/2015/02/parnis-watches-company.html
And more detail in response to skepticism on a forum: http://forums.watchuseek.com/f72/how-i-found-truth-about-parnis-1706514.html
Gugliermo
1317
Nov 21, 2017
CloacaYes, not only is it a "clone" of the 6497 but Seagull made several improvements to the movement. By most accounts it is superior to the original Swiss but I am no expert. The movement is also made by other Chinese manufacturers and quality control is still an ongoing problem. The premium Seagull movements are the best bet. They are often sold as the ST-3600 or the Seagull 6498, and they make their own hairsprings. The one I have in my blue dialed Parnis winder that I recently posted does not hack. I do not know if that is true for all 6497s. Yes, the Swiss are stopping the outside sale of ETA movements but they also have factories in China, so what is truly a Swiss watch is blurring more all the time.
Gugliermo
1317
Nov 21, 2017
CloacaThanks Cloaca for posting those links. There is a lot of misinformation out there from sour grapes , anti-Chinese bloggers. Tom Adelstein is the real deal, he is an investigative reporter, not a watch fan. Parnis is most definitely a Brand. Selling on eBay as a scam makes no sense. Thousands of customers and a 99% rating speaks for itself. The use of paypal also insures no scamming is going on. The Parnis watches I own and have seen are all uniformly excellent. As a musician I went through this with Chinese made guitars which were mostly condemned as junk 15 years ago. No longer. With the advent of CNC production, a proper Chinese guitar is built to tolerances second to none. And like many other things, most of the big guitar brands now make many of their own models there.
boozed
297
Nov 22, 2017
CloacaInteresting. As usual, it's just two guys on the internet with differing opinions, and it's difficult to know what to believe. Tom Adelstein seems persuasive at least, but there's still plenty of disagreement in that forum thread.
And also, back on topic, the above Parnis is one of my favourites. The blue-grey/silver panda version is a stunner too.
Cloaca
1906
Nov 22, 2017
boozedI don"t think it's two opinions. It the anonymous mob repeating unsourced claims about conspiratorial stories that don't pass Occam's Razor and rely on stereotypes about Chinese, and on the other side a named person who hired an investigator on site, pulled public records In multiple countries, and went to or had people go to factories and retailers.
Gugliermo
1317
Nov 22, 2017
Aye S O, my point as well. I was responding to the previous poster who used the word weird to describe their business model, but he changed it to odd...(-; Yes indeed, the Chinese, who can make Anything from smartphones to satellites, are just like everyone else: the foreign made stuff has more panache and cache...(-; But the domestic market in Chinese made luxury goods is also booming. The Hi-Fidelity sound equipment world is the same, they are eating the West's lunch in many areas. What was dismissed as junk 15 years ago is no longer. The upscale Chinese audio gear is also second to NONE in the world, that's coming from a long time Conrad-Johnson fan and owner. It's a rapidly changing world. Pretty exciting. Just my 2 cents as well...(-; Indeed, noted, it is an officially good looking watch, agreed friend! Have a Blessed Thanksgiving.
Cloaca
1906
Nov 22, 2017
GugliermoI think I was the guy who mentioned the business model, but only in my summary of the Wikipedia article about the company.
Gugliermo
1317
Nov 22, 2017
CloacaNo worries Cloaca, your input is always valued by this poster. Happy Thanksgiving!
PetrosD
3702
Nov 22, 2017
GugliermoIf you're old enough to remember, there was a time when Made in Japan was akin to junk. But both quality and perception of quality improved to where Japanese brands are highly regarded, as much or more as venerable European brands. Same with Korea. Remember when Hyundai first started selling cars in the US? They were crap. Now look at them. Same thing with the Chinese. I personally am still wary of certain Chinese products, especially anything that is, or relates to, food as I do not trust their adherence to fix safety standards (glazes on ceramic and porcelain ware could contain lead or other harmful products that can leach into food). But when it comes to hard goods like a watch, their quality is improving and can be very competitive.
Gugliermo
1317
Nov 22, 2017
PetrosDAgreed, and yes, I am that old..(-; Happy Holidays!
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