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GrizzledGeezer
50
May 19, 2018
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macdane
13
May 22, 2018
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GrizzledGeezer"I doubt any of these amps is sonically neutral (which you'd expect at such unbelievable prices), making them poorly designed."
Um, what? If your utterly unfounded doubt had any basis in reality you'd be largely right, but it's absurd to make such a statement without backing it up. Care to fill us in on why you doubt they do what "you'd expect" them to do?
Um, what? If your utterly unfounded doubt had any basis in reality you'd be largely right, but it's absurd to make such a statement without backing it up. Care to fill us in on why you doubt they do what "you'd expect" them to do?
GrizzledGeezer
50
May 22, 2018
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macdaneI knew I'd get hit on this, and would have to offer some justification . Here goes...
As both consumer and reviewer, I'm not obliged to assume any product "gets it right". "Right", in the case of amplification, is neutrality. What comes out is sonically indistinguishable from what went in.
Why would anyone -- designer or listener -- want anything else? Why would someone put a device in their system that audibly colored every recording they played?
Perhaps some listeners prefer such colorations. It's their money, so why shouldn't they choose what pleases them? Loudspeakers vary sufficiently in accuracy and character that, if one desires a certain sound (or lack thereof) one can likely find it. There's no need to sonically compromise the amplfier.
To design such a compromised amplifer, in the hope its distinctive sound would attract buyers, is not only aesthetically wrong, but morally unjustifiable.
I realize I've danced around your objection. My unproven argument is this... I suspect most Horribly Expensive amplifers were designed to prove a technical point, not necessarily have any particular sound quality.
I'm curious to hear the opinions of listeners as fussy as I am about absolute neutrality. How do current amplifiers, in all price classes, stack up in terms of neutrality?
As both consumer and reviewer, I'm not obliged to assume any product "gets it right". "Right", in the case of amplification, is neutrality. What comes out is sonically indistinguishable from what went in.
Why would anyone -- designer or listener -- want anything else? Why would someone put a device in their system that audibly colored every recording they played?
Perhaps some listeners prefer such colorations. It's their money, so why shouldn't they choose what pleases them? Loudspeakers vary sufficiently in accuracy and character that, if one desires a certain sound (or lack thereof) one can likely find it. There's no need to sonically compromise the amplfier.
To design such a compromised amplifer, in the hope its distinctive sound would attract buyers, is not only aesthetically wrong, but morally unjustifiable.
I realize I've danced around your objection. My unproven argument is this... I suspect most Horribly Expensive amplifers were designed to prove a technical point, not necessarily have any particular sound quality.
I'm curious to hear the opinions of listeners as fussy as I am about absolute neutrality. How do current amplifiers, in all price classes, stack up in terms of neutrality?
macdane
13
May 22, 2018
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GrizzledGeezerRight off the bat, I agree that you have no obligation — in any context — to assume that a given product "gets it right." But that doesn't mean it's reasonable to assume they do NOT get it right. Right? And that's what you've done here, with the only justification being a suspicion that amps like these are designed for something other than a sonic purpose. Now, if after actually listening to a number of products in this arena and finding them to be inexcusably colored-sounding, I think you'd be justified in voicing certain generalizations based on those experiences. But so far this is all just a series of "hunches." First, that these amps' designers had priorities other than sonics; and, second, that those other priorities carry some inherent threat to the sonics.
Your other questions are good ones. I don't necessarily share your view that neutrality is the holy grail of amp design — and find it laughable to suggest that there's any moral issue with a non-neutral amp! — but there's room for both you and I to be "correct" in our preferences. In this pursuit of home sound reproduction, some seek neutrality while others pursue things that tickle their pleasure centers. Who's right and who's wrong? Yes.
Your other questions are good ones. I don't necessarily share your view that neutrality is the holy grail of amp design — and find it laughable to suggest that there's any moral issue with a non-neutral amp! — but there's room for both you and I to be "correct" in our preferences. In this pursuit of home sound reproduction, some seek neutrality while others pursue things that tickle their pleasure centers. Who's right and who's wrong? Yes.
GrizzledGeezer
50
May 23, 2018
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macdaneThere's a related issue there's no time to go into -- how do we know what an amplifier sounds like? My publisher once said that, if you can accurately describe the sound of any product, that's all that was needed; the customer would make the value judgment. Correct. So when he asked me to judge a bunch of modestly priced amp, I created a "fixture" to run a bypass test that would hopefully reduce testing confusion. When he found out, he cancelled the project, apparently because he didn't want any "objectivity" in the testing.
Valid subjective testing (of which double-blind ABX auditioning is not a part) is hard to do correctly, so nobody bothers. "I heard the difference, so it must be there." (Hearing gross differences one day that vanished the next was what drove me out of reviewing.) The designer of a $100K amplifier is obliged to describe its sound character (if any) and give some reasonable evidence his description is valid. If he can't, then why is he designing amplifiers?
Valid subjective testing (of which double-blind ABX auditioning is not a part) is hard to do correctly, so nobody bothers. "I heard the difference, so it must be there." (Hearing gross differences one day that vanished the next was what drove me out of reviewing.) The designer of a $100K amplifier is obliged to describe its sound character (if any) and give some reasonable evidence his description is valid. If he can't, then why is he designing amplifiers?
macdane
13
May 23, 2018
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GrizzledGeezerI have no issue with objectivists unless and until they impose their values and priorities on others. Up to that point, it's just another approach to evaluating a given component. I am a subjectivist, believing the only rational goal in home hifi is to assemble a system that pleases me. That is, after all, the only reason for such a pursuit. I've simply heard too many components that measure well but sound bad to believe we've yet figured out how to measure the intricacies the human ear and brain are capable of experiencing, especially over the long term. So we're not likely to see eye-to-eye here.
As to the question of whether a designer has some duty to describe, with evidence, the sound of his amp ... I naturally disagree. Along those lines, one of my favorite descriptions comes from right here on Massdrop: "notice every note like never before, adding a dimension of accuracy that’s usually cloaked in distortion ... warm mids ... analytically detailed highs, and fully transparent bass." Wow! So *everything* is better, if not *more* better!
I share your healthy skepticism of these über amps to a degree, Geezer. There's zero chance any of them deliver performance commensurate with their prices. If audio performance was their sole reason for being, we could go around in circles about what serves as the best indicator ... measurements or sound? That's clearly not the only reason these things are made, but my point remains that there's no basis for assuming that they don't sound great.
As to the question of whether a designer has some duty to describe, with evidence, the sound of his amp ... I naturally disagree. Along those lines, one of my favorite descriptions comes from right here on Massdrop: "notice every note like never before, adding a dimension of accuracy that’s usually cloaked in distortion ... warm mids ... analytically detailed highs, and fully transparent bass." Wow! So *everything* is better, if not *more* better!
I share your healthy skepticism of these über amps to a degree, Geezer. There's zero chance any of them deliver performance commensurate with their prices. If audio performance was their sole reason for being, we could go around in circles about what serves as the best indicator ... measurements or sound? That's clearly not the only reason these things are made, but my point remains that there's no basis for assuming that they don't sound great.
GrizzledGeezer
50
May 23, 2018
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macdaneAs someone who listens primarily to acoustic music (which is a polite way of saying I'm a classical snob), I don't want the playback system "editorializing". In principle, if every component in the recording and playback chain were neutral, the listener would hear any and all kinds of music reproduced exactly as its creators intended. That's why I'm such a fuss-budget about neutrality -- it benefits everyone. In principle. Practice is another matter.
macdane
13
May 23, 2018
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GrizzledGeezerFair enough. As another someone who listens primarily to acoustic music (folk, bluegrass, and jazz are as much a part of my menu as classical), I get where you're coming from. I may not be as much of a stickler as you in the "neutrality vs editorial" debate — so long as any colorations lean in a direction that sounds good to me — but I'll maintain that there's no good way to measure the sound of an amp (or soundstaging ability, or a number of other important factors), and there's still no justification for presupposing that ultra-costly amps miss the mark sonically. You simply must listen to them to know.
GrizzledGeezer
50
May 23, 2018
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macdaneWhich, of course, returns us (in an arguably vicious circle) to the problem that measurements are mostly meaningless unless we "know" what the amplifier sounds like. But proper subjective testing is difficult, and designers tend to believe that "better" measurements equate to "better" sound, however one defines "better".
My attempts to get my publisher to perform long-term listening tests to (hopefully) start casting some light on the truth fell on deaf ears.
The kind of testing needed to determine the real differences between analog and digital, how much measurable distortion is actually audible, would be insanely complex and horribly expensive. So nobody does them -- they just assume.
My attempts to get my publisher to perform long-term listening tests to (hopefully) start casting some light on the truth fell on deaf ears.
The kind of testing needed to determine the real differences between analog and digital, how much measurable distortion is actually audible, would be insanely complex and horribly expensive. So nobody does them -- they just assume.
GrizzledGeezer
50
Jul 10, 2018
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macdaneProperly designed listening tests would enable us to properly evaluate the "sound" of individual componets. It would then be possible to attach meaningful specifications (as you point out in your post beloe.)
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This article by Nelson Pass seems to make sense:
https://www.passlabs.com/press/leaving-class
An amplifier should be transparent, neither adding to or subtracting from the signal. If it comes close (with only minor audible errors) for $1500, it's a well-designed amp. I doubt any of these amps is sonically neutral (which you'd expect at such unbelievable prices), making them poorly designed.
As for response extending well beyond 300kHz, I can only quote Michael Flanders: "All the highest notes, neither sharp nor flat -- the ear can't hear as high as that! Still, I ought to please any passing bat."