Massdrop 101: What Is A DAC? | There is no...

May 9, 2018

Anything more expensive than an ODAC is a waste of money.

Vote

ChumbWumba

271

May 9, 2018

TheTerriblePuddleWell..this is first of all rather subjective. Both in terms of how discernible the improvement in audio quality will be to the individual, as well as if the value is there as goes bang for the buck. I will definitely agree that there is certainly, as with most aspects of technology and life in general, the factor of the law of diminishing returns at play here. However, the price-point that each individual draws a line in the sand regarding their investment into hi-fi will vary greatly both on subjective feelings as well as priorities within one's personal finances. I definitely understand what you mean tho as goes best value for your dollar..most folks probably won't be able to discern enough of a gain in quality/enjoyment of their music collection to justify spending beyond a designated price range on their audio equipment.

May 9, 2018

TheTerriblePuddleNonsense. You get your $99 odac and me my $4400 Simaudio 380DD....the looser buys a steak and lobster dinner. I love shellfish

May 9, 2018

ChumbWumbaThere is no discernable difference capable for the human ear to pick up. More expensive gear buys you placebo effect or actual degradation of the sound which subjectively some people like.

Socratease

191

May 9, 2018

TheTerriblePuddleThanks for your opinion, but my experience was that I found the sound of the ODAC disappointing compared to other DACs and found I like the multibit designs better than Sigma-Delta. Believe your ears, not the numbers.

May 9, 2018

SocrateaseSame as a flat-earther saying: "Believe your intuition, not the science."

May 10, 2018

TheTerriblePuddleDSD; are we leaving that out of the equation, as a matter of convenience?

Vote

May 10, 2018

rastusIt's an useless feature.

Vote

May 10, 2018

TheTerriblePuddleYou are referring to DSD, correct?

Vote

May 10, 2018

rastusCouldn't be anything else.

Vote

May 10, 2018

TheTerriblePuddleAccording to your logic, why even spend money on an ODAC? Just plug your buds into your phone and be done with it, because anything else is a placebo effect. Why is there a "discernable difference capable for the human ear to pick up" between an ODAC and the DAC in your phone or computer? It's just 0s and 1s right? Recording studios could save a ton of money if only the engineers realized that their decisions were not based on "science."

May 10, 2018

BanerNo that's not my logic. There is a discernable difference between things cheaper than an ODAC. And studio engineers are very science based when it comes to playback. Much more so than audiophiles and people here.

Vote

May 10, 2018

TheTerriblePuddleI don't think you have had much experience in audio. Your comments, and I see this a lot on forums, reflect that. I guess it is attractive to be the lone wolf on issues, but it doesn't make it accurate. The fact that you are trying to dismiss other people's experiences is telling, and the fantasy that you believe that the level of component, engineering and parts quality that goes into a $99 DAC completely trumps a dac who's parts and engineering costs well into the thousands, is also telling. There are transformers that cost considerably more than this odac. It is a silly argument

May 10, 2018

TheTerriblePuddleRight, so that's why studios use $99 DACs, because according to you, the "science" says they should. There is actually very little discernible difference between things cheaper than an ODAC but a significant discernible difference between an ODAC and a Schiit Yggdrasil. Is the audible difference proportional to the difference in price? No but it is compelling. Having said that, a DAC is the last piece of gear in your chain that you should be concerned about. Audible differences between transducers are much more apparent, amplifiers less so and DACs even less. If your transducers are crap, you won't hear any difference between DACs or amplifiers. A DAC is probably the last piece of gear you should upgrade but once you reach a certain level of quality and transparency in your other gear, you'll want to upgrade your ODAC.

May 12, 2018

easola01I don't have a lot of wrong experience as you maybe. The rest of your comment is just two fallacies, ad hominem and argumentum ad crumenam. You know, there are audio components that have millions of R&D behind them, yet they sell for a dollar a piece. Why? Because after development and production scaling they can be produced for 50 cents, and when you sell thousands and thousands of them it breaks even. Compare that to a small team of hobbyist who at most spend 100k on R&D to come up with a discrete design and then sell their design for 2k a piece, hoping they might sell 5-10 units a year.

Vote

May 12, 2018

Baner"There is actually very little discernible difference between things cheaper than an ODAC but a significant discernible difference between an ODAC and a Schiit Yggdrasil." That statement is so dumb, I don't even need to break it down and point it out for the world to see. You know, those giant mixing boards you see in studios? Those are filled with cheap 5532 op-amps and even cheaper components for cheaper gear. Something an audiophile would vomit over if he saw it in commercial gear. And a studio wouldn't go for anything higher than a Benchmark DAC.

Vote

May 13, 2018

TheTerriblePuddle To say that very expensive mixing consoles include inexpensive components is not an argument against the claim that a Schiit Yggdrasil sounds better than a cheap ODAC; or for that matter, according to your logic, Neve, SSL, API, Duality, Tascam, etc consoles all sound the same. It is a strawman fallacy. Calling someone dumb is not an argument either, it is an ad hominem fallacy. And to quote from a blog on op-amps written by NwAvGuy without referencing him is plagiarism. Earlier you wrote, " There is no discernable difference capable for the human ear to pick up " regarding anything more expensive than an ODAC. And now you write, "a studio wouldn't go for anything higher than a Benchmark DAC". A Benchmark DAC is 20 times the price of an ODAC.
There are many well informed people on many forums who have ripped apart the NwAvGuy mantra that nothing sounds better than an ODAC. I urge people to think for themselves, avoid the dogmatic rants of shills like yourself, research and above all, listen for themselves.

May 13, 2018

BanerIt's not possible to count the strawmans you've made on two hands. You really go out of your way to present what I say in the most dishonest manner possible. Don't derail and stick to your unproven claim that "There is actually very little discernible difference between things cheaper than an ODAC" because that is dumber than your phone strawman. And go ahead and show me those people you mention. I'm sure their ears can hear the improvement of an upgrade cable too. EDIT: I think it's my turn to make a fallacy. I'm the only non-Massdrop associated user who's followed by Alex Cavalli. I must be an expert.

Vote

May 14, 2018

TheTerriblePuddle Why don't you take your NwAvGuy "anything more expensive than an ODAC is a waste of money" because "There is no discernable difference capable for the human ear to pick up" argument over to SBAF. See what they think of it. That dogmatic, bravado and idiotic claim is what started this thread and you still haven't backed it up other than through stawman, red herring and ad hominem fallacies and insults.

ChumbWumba

271

May 14, 2018

TheTerriblePuddleExcept that you can make the math for both heliocentric AND geocentric models work so...poor choice of analogies (not to mention we don't live on a globe).

May 14, 2018

TheTerriblePuddleLook, theterriblepuddle, I am telling you that there are parts in expensive DACS that, on their very own, comparing just the part to part....would put your odac to shame. If you love your odac then great. If your ears cannot hear anything better than an odac than great. That just leaves more lumin...simaudio....auralic....ear, etc for the rest of us.

May 14, 2018

TheTerriblePuddleCould be... blogs are full of them.

Vote

May 14, 2018

BanerYou're a hypocrite. I suppose you're also going to call me that now since everything I say in this thread you'll say I'm right after. At least SBAF isn't as idiotic as Head-Fi. Everything that has been asked of you, you have ignored.

Vote

May 14, 2018

easola01It's funny how people assume I actually own an ODAC. Expensive parts doesn't make a DAC any good. Implementation is what matters the most and component price doesn't necessarily reflect component performance. I'll assume you actually know the economic explanation behind that. Also, all your expensive R-2R dacs are shit and perform worse than other conventional dacs.

Vote

May 14, 2018

TheTerriblePuddleNobody said that expensive parts make a DAC any good. What I and other were challenging is your dogmatic and unsubstantiated claim that "anything more expensive than an ODAC is a waste of money" because "There is no discernable difference capable for the human ear to pick up". Now you have made two more dogmatic claims that also contradict each other: " Implementation is what matters the most" and "all your expensive R-2R dacs are shit and perform worse than other conventional dacs". You do know that on SBAF they refer to people like you as " NwAvGuy Zombies," because you sound like a bot that has taken random statements from different blogs and just thrown them together.

May 14, 2018

BanerYou haven't made any substantial challenge to my claims, you have only been growling and disrupting like a dog with paper teeth. And it's not a contradiction, so you should make a formal proof of your claim. You do know that on SBAF no group has been referred to as zombies more than Head-Fiers who worship Jude. You're in that box. And man, you're so obsessed with everything I write to easola01. I can introduce you guys to each other if you want to blow him so bad. (And he did claim expensive parts are better). Also: *bi bob bi bob you're wasting your time on a robot*

Vote

ChumbWumba

271

May 14, 2018

TheTerriblePuddleWow. Why spend your time and energy trying to demean others? I'm genuinely all for debating, but that was quite unnecessary and offensive. Very low blow (no pun intended).

Vote

May 14, 2018

ChumbWumbaIt's not taxing in any way. Baner never did debate to begin with. He is only trying to shut it down.

Vote

May 14, 2018

TheTerriblePuddleIs this you up on the wall? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWBUl7oT9sA
All "R-2R dacs are shit"... DSD a "useless feature"... don't fail us now... what else are we wasting our time & money on? Please go further down the talking point list.
Damn, I really wanted that DAC with a CSAC Rubidium tick-tock clock... guess an

OXCO will have to suffice...

Vote

May 14, 2018

rastusHaha, that genuinely made me laugh. Please, I know you're being sarcastic but do provide me with that list and I'll go through it.

Vote

May 15, 2018

TheTerriblePuddleOK, on the list, hot button topic: Audio PCM/DoP/DSD (native) USB isochronous streaming data transfer, i.e. no checksum.
Pick your team:
Shirts: Digital is just digital?
Skins: Data corruption is inherent in isochronous USB transfers, means should be taken to maintain data integrity, to reduce the level of muting and substitution that DAC's have to perform, to increase SQ?

Vote

May 15, 2018

TheTerriblePuddleI think I am having a hard time getting my point across. Let me put it another way, and I don't mean this as demeaning. It simply is laughable that anyone can insist that a $99 component is better than anything else. There isn't an audiophile....with experience of course...anywhere that would agree with your sentiment. But as I said before, it is attractive to some people to be the lone wolf...to be the one that defies convention. However...I am glad that you have your opinion.