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LiquidEvilGaming
198
Sep 15, 2015
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I know i am in the minority when it comes to this....but i could never see paying this kind of money for an ABS set..doubleshot or not...It's attractive sure but once it starts to shine like a bald mans head that nice 75-100$ set now looks like childs toy plastic....and feels like typing on oil. I know PBT has less color options for custom sets but i'd still love to see a nice custom PBT set pop up eventually.
Xx00zeROxX
21
Sep 15, 2015
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LiquidEvilGamingThen 'punch out' because this set is takin' off...
LiquidEvilGaming
198
Sep 15, 2015
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Xx00zeROxXHardy har har +1 for humor...but in all seriousness PBT and or POM is the standard go to material for really high quality sets...i really wish some of these companies would do a PBT or POM set instead of using low quality ABS... Massdrop make that happen would you?
Data
2004
Data
Sep 15, 2015
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LiquidEvilGamingIn fairness, 99.9999% of all keyboard key sets are made with ABS. There's nothing low quality about it, it just has different thermal and wear properties from other plastics. In fact, PBT's thermal expansion makes it very hard to work with, which is why Signature Plastics refuses to do doubleshot PBT. Chosing PBT puts a lot of design restrictions on a key set, and those are compromises I wasn't willing to make for this project. You're free to prefer one plastic over another, but this one is ABS and I have a feeling you're going to continue seeing a lot of them. Thanks for your feedback.
Xx00zeROxX
21
Sep 15, 2015
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LiquidEvilGamingDon't get me wrong, I love PBT as much as the next guy, but ABS Doubleshot SA Profile is so dang cool to type on. Right now, I am typing on this 'oily' set of SA Retro I just got, and it's awesome. Don't knock it until you try it. Now, OEM and DCS ABS plastic keycaps are trash, but SA is really something to behold, my friend.
livingspeedbump
6723
KeyChatter’s Owner and Editor-in-Chief
Sep 15, 2015
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LiquidEvilGamingI would say this is absolutely NOT the case, though the forum circle-jerking often leads people to believe this. For starters, SA and ABS go together perfectly in my opinion. The shine actually improves the look overtime and really gives the SA sets a very vintage feel/vibe, which fits the profile perfectly. There is also the fact that SA caps are thicker than just about any PBT or POM caps out there, and honestly feel just as good, if not better. In short, ABS SA rivals any keycaps out there in terms of quality, and are top notch caps.
Sadly, people often trash talk anything but PBT, but at the end of the day one is not better than the other by any stretch. There is advantages and disadvantages to both, and really it only comes down to personal opinion. Bad ABS caps come with many keyboards, true, but they are bad because they are so thin, not because they are ABS. I've also used a lot of crap PBT caps, material alone don't make or break caps ;)
Sadly, people often trash talk anything but PBT, but at the end of the day one is not better than the other by any stretch. There is advantages and disadvantages to both, and really it only comes down to personal opinion. Bad ABS caps come with many keyboards, true, but they are bad because they are so thin, not because they are ABS. I've also used a lot of crap PBT caps, material alone don't make or break caps ;)
LiquidEvilGaming
198
Sep 15, 2015
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livingspeedbumpThe fact that the caps shine more or less disagrees with your entire argument. Shined caps feel like typing on a sweaty bald head. Iv'e also used plenty of ABS sets and plenty of PBT sets and even having used something like EVE it's not comparable feeling to 30$ VORTEX Doubleshot PBT. There is a reason the circle jerk exists and that is the feeling/sound/durability of PBT is in most cases superior. ABS one advantage is it's greater color selection for more options within custom sets. Now if you LIKE the feel of shined ABS that is another matter but i don't come across too many people in the two biggest online communities for mech boards that feel that way reddit Mechanical Keyboards and or Geekhack,
https://wlhlm.github.io/rmk-march-2015-survey/caps.html (#1 online mech keyboard community 58.8% PBT, 11.5% ABS
All my point was is Massdrop should approach someone about making a PBT custom set instead of ABS alllllllll the time since PBT among enthusiast communities seems to be the preferred material and since Mech boards are a niche as it is....just a thought. Not suggesting to STOP selling ABS sets :p
https://wlhlm.github.io/rmk-march-2015-survey/caps.html (#1 online mech keyboard community 58.8% PBT, 11.5% ABS
All my point was is Massdrop should approach someone about making a PBT custom set instead of ABS alllllllll the time since PBT among enthusiast communities seems to be the preferred material and since Mech boards are a niche as it is....just a thought. Not suggesting to STOP selling ABS sets :p
Elrick
2105
Sep 16, 2015
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LiquidEvilGamingJust a side note here concerning some people who sweat constantly which means all the time. Don't buy this that's your only choice, in fact don't buy any more key-caps at all.
Either work in an Air Conditioned environment that should alleviate your uncontrolled sweating or go see your Doctor to fix the problem.
No one is here to cater to a tiny minority that sweat like glass houses during any temps. Neither should anyone else be concerned about these people.
I work in 40 Degrees plus environs but I barely sweat at all on my forearms/hands. Hence any key-caps are fine to use even within horrendously hot situations.
So those who constantly think that everyone else suffers like them, no they don't. In essence this circle-jerking is just that trying their best to smear a Group Buy for their own selfish purposes.
Either work in an Air Conditioned environment that should alleviate your uncontrolled sweating or go see your Doctor to fix the problem.
No one is here to cater to a tiny minority that sweat like glass houses during any temps. Neither should anyone else be concerned about these people.
I work in 40 Degrees plus environs but I barely sweat at all on my forearms/hands. Hence any key-caps are fine to use even within horrendously hot situations.
So those who constantly think that everyone else suffers like them, no they don't. In essence this circle-jerking is just that trying their best to smear a Group Buy for their own selfish purposes.
ahndrew
77
Sep 16, 2015
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LiquidEvilGamingI do happen to like the shine because it shows the keys have been well-used, appreciated, and loved and it gives it personality.
I couldn't agree more with @livingspeedbump about the circlejerk surrounding PBT. While you argue the shine makes ABS worse, I would argue that the fact that PBT cannot (yet) be doubleshot, which is unarguably by far the best method for the longest-lasting legends, is a huge strike against PBT. It might be the more durable plastic against shine but it can't have the most durable legends.
But at the end of the day it's to each his own.
I couldn't agree more with @livingspeedbump about the circlejerk surrounding PBT. While you argue the shine makes ABS worse, I would argue that the fact that PBT cannot (yet) be doubleshot, which is unarguably by far the best method for the longest-lasting legends, is a huge strike against PBT. It might be the more durable plastic against shine but it can't have the most durable legends.
But at the end of the day it's to each his own.
livingspeedbump
6723
KeyChatter’s Owner and Editor-in-Chief
Sep 16, 2015
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LiquidEvilGamingJust so you know, I was a Moderator or /r/mk until a few weeks ago (when i stepped down to avoid any conflict of interest that may occur with opening my KeyChatter store) ;)
That being said, I am well aware of what the "#1 online mech community" says on the matter. That really only goes to backup my "forum circle-jerking" that I was talking about. Many users have never had the chance to try POM/PBT/ABS, side by side with caps of equal quality. Many times "ABS" is associated with "stock keycaps" and PBT is associated with "aftermarket" keycaps, which already skews how people view them. I've used hundreds of keyboards, and have found that quality keycaps come in a wide variety of materials, not just PBT. How the legends are put on the cap is also HUGELY important. Sure stock POK3R caps are thick PBT, but their legends wear off after a week and they look awful after that. Double shots, like most SA caps never wear off, and always retain a very clean look.
The sound argument is a little pointless. If i put a set of BSP caps next to GMK caps on the same keyboard, nobody would be able to tell the difference. Material itself isn't nearly as important as thickness/profile in terms of sound.
Now, from a design standpoint there are a lot of restrictions when making a set. Signature Plastics is the only company that makes SA caps, and they don't do them in PBT. PBT in general can be a little more difficult to work with as well, and has more limitations than ABS. Also, many color schemes aren't available with PBT as most quality sets are dye sublimated, and you cant have lighter legends on darker keys with dye-sub. There are just tons of factors that go into consideration when creating a set :)
All I am reiterating is that when it comes to high quality caps, it is 100% subjective, without any clear/obvious better choice. I've been at this a long time, and have grown to prefer ABS over PBT. Can I understand why someone would prefer PBT or POM? Absolutely :D I'ts just a little misinformed to knock an entire material i think .
(I included some pics of SA ABS/Vintage ABS vs POK3R caps, used those as reference point since many are familiar with POK3R caps )
That being said, I am well aware of what the "#1 online mech community" says on the matter. That really only goes to backup my "forum circle-jerking" that I was talking about. Many users have never had the chance to try POM/PBT/ABS, side by side with caps of equal quality. Many times "ABS" is associated with "stock keycaps" and PBT is associated with "aftermarket" keycaps, which already skews how people view them. I've used hundreds of keyboards, and have found that quality keycaps come in a wide variety of materials, not just PBT. How the legends are put on the cap is also HUGELY important. Sure stock POK3R caps are thick PBT, but their legends wear off after a week and they look awful after that. Double shots, like most SA caps never wear off, and always retain a very clean look.
The sound argument is a little pointless. If i put a set of BSP caps next to GMK caps on the same keyboard, nobody would be able to tell the difference. Material itself isn't nearly as important as thickness/profile in terms of sound.
Now, from a design standpoint there are a lot of restrictions when making a set. Signature Plastics is the only company that makes SA caps, and they don't do them in PBT. PBT in general can be a little more difficult to work with as well, and has more limitations than ABS. Also, many color schemes aren't available with PBT as most quality sets are dye sublimated, and you cant have lighter legends on darker keys with dye-sub. There are just tons of factors that go into consideration when creating a set :)
All I am reiterating is that when it comes to high quality caps, it is 100% subjective, without any clear/obvious better choice. I've been at this a long time, and have grown to prefer ABS over PBT. Can I understand why someone would prefer PBT or POM? Absolutely :D I'ts just a little misinformed to knock an entire material i think .
(I included some pics of SA ABS/Vintage ABS vs POK3R caps, used those as reference point since many are familiar with POK3R caps )
JohnRCooper
858
Zslane
Sep 16, 2015
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livingspeedbumpYou've nicely summarized all the reasons why ABS is still an important material for keycaps. The *only* thing I find superior about PBT is its long-term durability and resistance to yellowing. But the fact that the only SA-family caps you can get with custom legends and color combinations are made with ABS plastic trumps all other considerations as far as I'm concerned.
Sure, maybe some day Vortex or some other vendor will perfect double-shotting PBT on SA-profile keycaps and give Signature Plastics some competition. Until then, I am going to continue to be a fan of ABS.
Sure, maybe some day Vortex or some other vendor will perfect double-shotting PBT on SA-profile keycaps and give Signature Plastics some competition. Until then, I am going to continue to be a fan of ABS.
livingspeedbump
6723
KeyChatter’s Owner and Editor-in-Chief
Sep 16, 2015
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JohnRCooperThanks!
I just think it is important to judge each/company/profile/etc individually and not lump them into "materials" as that is just going to mislead people at best.
I just think it is important to judge each/company/profile/etc individually and not lump them into "materials" as that is just going to mislead people at best.
Xx00zeROxX
21
Sep 17, 2015
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LiquidEvilGamingI guess the reason I like the profile/material is because it takes me back to the old days when computers filled a desk, and there were no such thing as laptop/notebook computers. Back when Hard Drives were hard to come by and when you needed to use a boot Floppy to be able to run software. Monochrome monitors came in either of two colors, Green/Black or Amber/Black, and there was no such thing as a mouse. This profile takes me back to those times...however, I do like the feel of a good PBT set, i.e. IMSTO Cherry Profile. :)
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