Hey everyone,
We’ve seen a huge growth in both Blades and Cooking communities over the last year, so we partnered with Apogee Culinary Design, one of the most popular brands among members. The goal of the 8” Vital Chef’s knife was to serve members who are already home chefs with a quality, utilitarian blade, but also help members who are just getting started in the kitchen to have an all-around tool that be comfortable and easy to use, and help them to enjoy learning new skills.
Based on the discussion in that first kitchen knife collaboration, we recognized there that a lot of members who were already enthusiasts of blade steels and cooking tools were interested in other collaborations. So, in our second collaboration with Apogee Culinary Design, our aim is to serve more established chefs with a knife that is just as utilitarian in the right hands, but requires a bit more experience to fully appreciate. The ten-inch blade is 25% longer than the Vital, and the handle is lighter and slimmer - in confident hands, it’s an absolute joy to work with, but it’s a bit large to be “the only knife you need” or “the perfect knife for beginners.”
Although the Gyuto (chef), and Petty (paring) as well as the new Santoku style (meaning “three virtues”) have become very popular in recent years, most traditional Japanese blade patterns are designed for very specialized tasks: the Usuba (single-bevel) and Nakiri (double-bevel) for cutting vegetables, Deba for fileting small fish and poultry, and designs dedicated specifically to cutting cabbage (Kyabeshikiri), carrots (ninjinkiri), eel (Unagisaki), tuna (Magurokiri), bread (Pankiri), noodles (Sobakiri), etc. or even peeling chestnuts (Kurimuki). This Kiritsuke blade shape is, according to many people, the only traditional Japanese shape that is a hybrid blade - meaning that it serves multiple purposes - cutting vegetables, and slicing proteins.
While we do recommend hand-washing, the blade’s Japanese AUS-10 steel core with a kasumi-style, impact-welded cladding in SUS420, is fully stainless - as opposed to many high-end Japanese knives, which use non-stainless, high-carbon steels that can discolor if they are not rinsed and dried fairly quickly and often during food prep. Here’s a bit more info regarding the steel and some relevant comparisons (AUS-8 and VG-10).
http://zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=AUS10%2CAUS8%2CVG10&ni=875%2C874%2C643
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A few housekeeping notes:
* This drop is limited to 1000 units.
* The magnetic bamboo sheath is included on this drop. It will be available in future drops as an option (+ $20).
* Our estimated ship date is July 31st, 2018.
I will be available to answer any questions before the drop launches, thanks for checking it out and to everyone who helps to make this possible!
Carry On - Jonas
JonasHeinemanCan you confirm the blade thickness which is listed as 1.8mm? Seems very thin for a 10 inch blade, but at least it would help to mitigate the apparent fatness of the blade behind the edge (at least it looks quite thick to me based on the choil shot).
JonasHeinemanHow was the decision to use Aus-10 made, and not say, VG-10? Pretty curious, because Aus-10 never made too much headway in knives. Neat choice, btw!
Also, whats the limit on this drop? Asking because I missed out on the spyderco delica in sg2, and I dont want to miss another one!
method_burgerGreat question! VG-10 is pretty common, and has a decent reputation. It's certainly a respected steel, but it has been reported to be susceptible to chipping, especially when sharpened to lower angles. AUS-8 is also common, and Al Mar puts a really great heat treat on it, but it has a much lower carbon content than we wanted for a kitchen knife of this caliber. We chose AUS-10 because it's more resistant to chipping - this is likely due to the presence of Nickel (adds toughness) and Silicone (adds strength), and the absence of Cobalt (adds hardness). You can read volumes on the metallurgy of knives; I'd recommend starting with the Zknives link above. As with all steels, the heat treatment plays a big role in how the steel performs in its final form. It's as much of an art as it is a science, and something that our manufacturing partner excels at.
JonasHeinemanI have some pretty 'old' steels made recently, and the heat treat less than fantastic. I think, overtime, heat treat companies just forget to heat treat older steels properly, like BG-42 or ATS-34, and less than common steels like AUS-10 fit into that category, too. Sort of my fear with Aus-10.
Aus-10 seems to be close to both VG-10 and 440C. I never thought 440C was a good cutlery steel, since it doesnt hold an edge that long and takes a bit of work to get back to tip top shape, imo. very wear-resistant compared to VG-10. I never had chipping issues with VG-10, but I usually dont sharpen my kitchen knives that shallow, and I almost always convex. From an alloy standpoint, it looks like a mix of 440C and VG-10, but heat treat really determines the performance of the knife. I'm hoping this has better edge retention than 440C with the sharpenability of VG-10. Pretty excited!
JonasHeinemanAUS 10 is more closely related to 440C in my best understanding, and is a more forgiving steel. What about building a blade in the more traditional sense and put a high carbon core with a softer outer scale
If I understand your suggestion, you'd like to see us make a blade in "san mai" or similar cladding style, but with a non-stainless core instead of stainless? That's certainly possible - as the Blades and Cooking community grows, we'll see if there's a market for steels like this. We're just getting started here, there are more good things to come - thanks for the suggestion, will definitely keep it in mind. If I'm wrong about what you meant please let me know, and I'm interested to hear if others would also like to see a knife like this with something like Aogami white or blue steels.
JonasHeinemanWhat about making a Honyaki blade? Obviously that would be more of a traditional handmade thing, and difficult to scale it up, but I am sure we can get a nice MD x someone trying! I would totally be in.
AndreugvThat's more of a limited small order thing, though. I think you're better off buying from the established outlets for really traditional honyaki. Furthermore, i don't think anyone here, myself included, is set up to really sharpen those (I mean, i have a nice stone collection, but only about 1/2 the grits i think i'd want to tackle one of those, and 0% of the skill necessary). You even need to find a service you would send something like that to, i think it would be too niche or too expensive for most of MD's clientele...You need a sword polisher to do maintenance on them!
Now, if you just want hamon...there's plenty of ways you can mass produce those these days.
PigmonkeYYeah just checking to see if MD would be interested. They could get an artisan to produce a big batch (maybe 100), all with the same shape, handle, etc... and that might bring the costs down a bit.
Last one I bought, in Singapore, the seller wouldn't sell the knife to some random dude. I actually had to explain him how I care for my knives and what stones I hsd. He even made me show him how I shharpen knives with a random deba he had in the shop and the finally sold it to me. (Basically had to pass a test to spend 1400 on a knife LOL).
I am sure there are knife aficionados in here that will have the skills and equipment for a small batch of those. Please MD!
AndreugvHahaha that sounds like an incredible journey! Would love to one day buy something like that, where the maker cares enough that I have to prove myself. That's flat out awesome.
KavikFunny thing, he was actually not the maker. Just a great knife shop and happened to have just 1 nice from a Japanese artisan, old friend of his. You know how japanese guys are... they make a blade and they pour their soul into it, so the friend had to protect it and not sell it until someone worth it came... I happen to have learnt how to sharpen japanese knives from a japenese chef who he knew (by name), and that opened me the opportunity to buy it. Definitly I was not looking for it but when an opportunity to buy such an impressive piece comes, you either take it or lose it!
JonasHeinemanAUS-10 is much better than VG-10 in Total Card Cut [TCC] due to the material not being as brittle for sure. I am curious about your thoughts on Swedish Steel for kitchen knives?
JonasHeinemanWhere is the listed blade thickness measured? Can we have a few measurements at the spine and a little behind the edge though the length of the knife?
antguycogI am a big fan of Swedish steel for chef's knives, I have a konosuke hh and Richmond laser in aeb-l and absolutely love them. Having stainless for an all purpose knife is a plus imo. My honusuki and suji are ginsanko or semi stainless for knives that won't come into contact with a lot of acidic items carbon is a good choice
AndreugvNot trying to be a dick, but the utility-for-price is pretty low with differential hardening. Even swordmakers aren't doing that anymore at commercial scale.
Stainless-clad ayogami, on the other hand...
JacksonKnivesI really like differential hardening. It's a personal thing, since I like a bit of old-world techniques (when materials weren't as good, so they had to come up with creative and time consuming ways to optimize what they had to make a good tool)
personally, i'm going to make a high carbon steel knife set for myself. really like that stuff, since it requires care and maintenance, which promotes good knife habits in the long run. (unlike cheap throwaway stainless steel knives)
FuzzLast time in Osaka was over 15 years ago! Been dying to go back as I loved it.
I will pin down this place on my map, thank you.
Good to know that they are still around, as said I am not sure is the correct place because of the google photos. I remember they had a patio with a shed or something like that, where the owner kept his water stones and sharpened the quality knives.
FuzzI wish I'd seen this post when you wrote it because I was in Osaka about a week afterwards! I still managed to pick up a few quality knives in Kyoto and Tokyo though.
SmithyNZKia ora!
I did some shopping at the old Tsukiji outer market and the new Toyosu market too, as well as along Kappabashi. :)
My next purchase is likely from NZ!
https://www.goulderknives.com/kitchen-knives
We’ve seen a huge growth in both Blades and Cooking communities over the last year, so we partnered with Apogee Culinary Design, one of the most popular brands among members. The goal of the 8” Vital Chef’s knife was to serve members who are already home chefs with a quality, utilitarian blade, but also help members who are just getting started in the kitchen to have an all-around tool that be comfortable and easy to use, and help them to enjoy learning new skills.
Based on the discussion in that first kitchen knife collaboration, we recognized there that a lot of members who were already enthusiasts of blade steels and cooking tools were interested in other collaborations. So, in our second collaboration with Apogee Culinary Design, our aim is to serve more established chefs with a knife that is just as utilitarian in the right hands, but requires a bit more experience to fully appreciate. The ten-inch blade is 25% longer than the Vital, and the handle is lighter and slimmer - in confident hands, it’s an absolute joy to work with, but it’s a bit large to be “the only knife you need” or “the perfect knife for beginners.”
Although the Gyuto (chef), and Petty (paring) as well as the new Santoku style (meaning “three virtues”) have become very popular in recent years, most traditional Japanese blade patterns are designed for very specialized tasks: the Usuba (single-bevel) and Nakiri (double-bevel) for cutting vegetables, Deba for fileting small fish and poultry, and designs dedicated specifically to cutting cabbage (Kyabeshikiri), carrots (ninjinkiri), eel (Unagisaki), tuna (Magurokiri), bread (Pankiri), noodles (Sobakiri), etc. or even peeling chestnuts (Kurimuki). This Kiritsuke blade shape is, according to many people, the only traditional Japanese shape that is a hybrid blade - meaning that it serves multiple purposes - cutting vegetables, and slicing proteins.
While we do recommend hand-washing, the blade’s Japanese AUS-10 steel core with a kasumi-style, impact-welded cladding in SUS420, is fully stainless - as opposed to many high-end Japanese knives, which use non-stainless, high-carbon steels that can discolor if they are not rinsed and dried fairly quickly and often during food prep. Here’s a bit more info regarding the steel and some relevant comparisons (AUS-8 and VG-10). http://zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=AUS10%2CAUS8%2CVG10&ni=875%2C874%2C643
A few housekeeping notes: * This drop is limited to 1000 units. * The magnetic bamboo sheath is included on this drop. It will be available in future drops as an option (+ $20). * Our estimated ship date is July 31st, 2018.
I will be available to answer any questions before the drop launches, thanks for checking it out and to everyone who helps to make this possible!
Carry On - Jonas
Our Apogee Vital collaboration is made by the same manufacturer, but with US-produced steel. https://www.massdrop.com/buy/massdrop-x-apogee-vital-8-inch-chefs-knife
They do a KILLER job at that factory.
Also, whats the limit on this drop? Asking because I missed out on the spyderco delica in sg2, and I dont want to miss another one!
Aus-10 seems to be close to both VG-10 and 440C. I never thought 440C was a good cutlery steel, since it doesnt hold an edge that long and takes a bit of work to get back to tip top shape, imo. very wear-resistant compared to VG-10. I never had chipping issues with VG-10, but I usually dont sharpen my kitchen knives that shallow, and I almost always convex. From an alloy standpoint, it looks like a mix of 440C and VG-10, but heat treat really determines the performance of the knife. I'm hoping this has better edge retention than 440C with the sharpenability of VG-10. Pretty excited!
If I understand your suggestion, you'd like to see us make a blade in "san mai" or similar cladding style, but with a non-stainless core instead of stainless? That's certainly possible - as the Blades and Cooking community grows, we'll see if there's a market for steels like this. We're just getting started here, there are more good things to come - thanks for the suggestion, will definitely keep it in mind. If I'm wrong about what you meant please let me know, and I'm interested to hear if others would also like to see a knife like this with something like Aogami white or blue steels.
I'm talkin' 64HRC+ on the core.
Now, if you just want hamon...there's plenty of ways you can mass produce those these days.
Last one I bought, in Singapore, the seller wouldn't sell the knife to some random dude. I actually had to explain him how I care for my knives and what stones I hsd. He even made me show him how I shharpen knives with a random deba he had in the shop and the finally sold it to me. (Basically had to pass a test to spend 1400 on a knife LOL).
I am sure there are knife aficionados in here that will have the skills and equipment for a small batch of those. Please MD!
Stainless-clad ayogami, on the other hand...
personally, i'm going to make a high carbon steel knife set for myself. really like that stuff, since it requires care and maintenance, which promotes good knife habits in the long run. (unlike cheap throwaway stainless steel knives)