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Jotunn
87
Apr 7, 2018
Hey guys I'm pretty new here but excited to begin experiencing hi-fi audio. I have my eyes set on these Elex and the Cavalli Tube Hybrid Amp. I'll just be running them through my macbook pro. Question is do I need a dedicated DAC to enjoy the music since the DAC in the macbook is likely minimal in its performance?
Any advice is appreciated. I'm trying to stay under 250 for the amp or amp/dac. Thanks!
BuiltFromCarbon
6
Apr 7, 2018
JotunnI would say yes to a DAC for sure. If you're looking for a budget option, you could do a lot worse than the FiiO Q1 Mark II. It's a solid buy at around $100. You could add a 4 pin xlr to 2.5mm balanced adaptor for $30.
Jay_P
40
Apr 7, 2018
JotunnI have a couple of sets of headphones from the Massdrop: TH-X00 PH, HD 6XX, HE4XX, and AKG7XX. I have hooked them up with CTH Amp + Modi 2 U / Ifi Nano BL. To my ears, the CTH + ifi nano bl combo with those headphones generate a fuller sound and a wider soundstage so far. That tiny box with a Burr Brown chip is a beast and costs (only?) $199. And I am considering CTH + ifi micro bl (to be purchased soon) as a dac/amp stack condidate for my Elex. Can’t wait to see those babies!
Jay_PI'd also agree with with @Jay_P on the iFi idsd BL. I use mine with the CTH and it really does deliver a more natural/neutral sound with a touch of warmth. Even better is that it's battery-powered and if you have very sensitive IEMs mates perfectly with them with ample power.
alvarg
235
Apr 10, 2018
JotunnAmps make more of an audible difference than the dac does, the only thing the dac is suppose to do is convert the 1010101 into sound so its not necessarily colouring the sound and more likely to leave information out, the problem with plugging anything from your mac into an external amp is that your mac is going to be amping everything that comes out as well (potentially colouring the music) then it will go through a second amp (potentially making things worse). Wait for the purists who will claim their $200/500/1000/2000 dollar dac makes things 10 times better, When really if you got 2 decent external dacs and a/b tested them through the same amp i highly doubt you'd hear any change to the sound.
jaydunndiddit
3262
Apr 10, 2018
alvargWhat you're saying is misleading, at best. Cost is only a factor because it matters as to what chips are being used and their implementation in the unit. The general difference between DACs, and even amps, are things like FR, jitter, distortion, damping, how power is delivered, etc. While most would argue that these effects aren't intended and a proper amp/dac should be as transparent as possible. And as you said, if a signal is being converted from digital to analog, all sorts of issues can arise in that process, altering the sound before it hits your headphones. Honestly, I'd say there are less differences between amps as their only goal is to amplify a sound. And there are only so many ways to do as such unless you're comparing a SS vs tube.
alvarg
235
Apr 10, 2018
jaydunndiddityeah but amplifying a signal isn't black and white if it was then people wouldn't talk about amp matching and why some headphones just sound their best on certain (not necessarily the most expensive) amps. and i'll edit what i said above as there would be a change in the sound between a cheap dac and an expensive one, I've just heard more of a difference changing amps than i have changing dacs, in saying that I've never had an expensive dac, so perhaps the difference between cheaper dacs is negligible while more expensive dacs might sound different to each other, i do not have the resources or the inclination to drop money on something that i can't guarantee I'll hear any improve from and im not in a position to demo expensive audio equipment either.
jaydunndiddit
3262
Apr 10, 2018
alvargAgain, what you're saying is a bit misleading. In your example, it has less to do with the amp than the headphone itself. The amp is just there to supply power and voltage under load. How that's perceived through your headphones is up to its driver design/type, dampening, etc. For example, the HD 6XX is a demanding headphone more for the voltage it requires, especially at peak. That's why many state it "scales" well as there aren't many budget amps that will deliver what it needs (it needs 2 Volts RMS and upwards of 6 Volts peak which most sources do not hit). Again, that has less to do with the amp and more with the demand of the headphone. My point is even if you had the amp that was mated perfectly to something like the 6XX, a DAC can (and probably would) change the signal even more depending on type. SABRE chips have their particular sound, same as Burr Brown, or AKM from Schiit. But that can vary slightly depending on implementation in the DAC itself. Hell, even some lower-end Topping units utilize mobile phone DACs but do so in a very well done implementation. But if you were to listen to that same DAC from a cellphone it would more than likely sound subpar.
I guess my long-winded response is basically saying a DAC will have more impact than an amp unless you're going SS vs Tube (and that's a different can of worms). As long as your amp is supplying the correct amount of continuous and peak power to your headphones, they should all roughly sound the same. The source itself matters more as the DAC from a laptop, cellphone, TV, AV receiver or external unit will have a bigger difference on sound due to implementation and how much noise/jitter/distortion/etc. they introduce into the signal they are converting.
tunejunky
24
Apr 13, 2018
Jotunnhi Jotunn. tldr; the macbook pro has crap audio. you're looking at a sweet amp and sweeter headphones. but you *do* need a dac - eventually, if not now. both amp and headset are solid. you can pickup a 24/192 DAC from $110. However, i would see if the macbook pro sounds disappointing first. i think it will, but hey you may not. also i would look for a dac with DSD capability, especially if you have any plans on streaming audio.
rastus
1391
Apr 14, 2018
JotunnYes to the external DAC, but you may want to wait and see what MD comes up with on the DAC collaboration (a player I hope) now in the works; to stack under your CTH.
DSD (native) capability in any new DAC, is a desirable moving forward; it should be there in the new MD unit...
later you could add a Massdrop x THX AAA™ 789 as a pure SS amp to the matching stack, aesthetics count, and by specs it is equally impressive; reviews will be forthcoming;)
Jotunn
87
Apr 14, 2018
tunejunkyThanks for the advice, tunejunky. I'm sure I'll get the dac eventually and I've never heard of DSD but I'll definitely look into it since I'll be streaming so that's very helpful. I used to have a tidal subscription but I didn't like the format so I went back to spotify premium. I do have a ton of FLACs but not everything I would ever want to listen to obviously. Thanks again!
tunejunky
24
Apr 14, 2018
Jotunnyou're welcome. happy listening. also, just in case you migrated from the Apple ecosystem with your library organized with iTunes (it happens) i Highly Recommend dBpoweramp. it is highly threaded (1 track per core with or without hyperthreading) compact, well designed and highly efficient. just in case you need to convert or batch convert to and from FLAC, ALAC, etc.. it isn't free, or expensive but they have lifetime support across computers when you update/upgrade your hardware.
billy12347
23
Apr 15, 2018
jaydunndidditAn amp will make much more of a difference on sound than a dac. Amplifiers deal with analog signal, and there is a million different was an analog signal can be changed, whether it's intentional or not. A dac deals with digital signals. It turns 1s and 0s into a waveform. Digital signals don't have to worry about interference. Either it works or it doesn't. Most dacs are made to color the sound as little as possible. And once you get past an ODAC then there's minimal improvement to the sound between dacs, because the better the dac, the lower the distortion. And with some of the more expensive dacs you get higher sampling rates and DSD and 32 bit audio, which doesn't really affect how the music sounds in any life changing ways. There are dacs that are made to color the sound but those are fairly uncommon and tend to be very expensive.
So what I'm trying to say is, Amplifiers have lots of variables, and dacs are made to have very few variables, which means an amp will affect sound way more than a dac will.
jaydunndiddit
3262
Apr 15, 2018
billy12347I would agree with you in regards to tube amps. But, with a vast majority of SS amps that difference is small as long as the headphones or loudspeakers are being properly powered at peak and continuous. With a DAC, the sound signature can change depending on whether the signal is being passed through optical, USB, or RCA, etc and what the source file is. This can be further changed/colored if we are using a tube DAC and opens up even more possibilities via tube rolling (much like a tube amp). The amp is just going to amplify the signal to meet its power spec. Thats is its only job. And as long as the intended headphone is being driven properly to their spec, the difference between amps is miniscule. There are only so many ways to amplify a signal compared to converting a signal.
You then throw in the implementation of various DAC chips and that sound can be altered further, for better or for worse depending on the users taste. To infer that DACs do not contain the same level of configurations is very misleading.
billy12347
23
Apr 15, 2018
jaydunndidditAmps only amplify the signal, yes, but since there is a million different things that can change between amps, there's a million different sound signatures. You've got different classes A, A/B, D, different output impedances, different components, etc. In a normal dac, the signal is digital, so where it comes into the dac shouldn't make a difference, because the digital signal will be the same whether it's USB or optical. RCA is an analog connector, so a dac wouldn't use that as an input. If you're thinking coaxial, then my previous point still stands. A source file has very little do do with a dac, that's pretty much it's own thing, if you have a 128kbps mp3 it's going to sound worse than a (properly transcoded) FLAC file, but the dac has no control over how the file it's playing is made. Tube dacs fall into the category of dac that is supposed to color the sound, and are pretty uncommon.
Dacs are made to do nothing to the sound except for edge cases. It's their job to let the amplifier do the hard work, and deal with all the analog signals and the variables that come with it. The cheaper dacs will change a the sound because the components they use aren't quite up to spec, but you hit a very early plateau in sound quality once you get past $150-$200 dacs.
jaydunndiddit
3262
Apr 15, 2018
billy12347And that's why I said the point you're making is misleading since there can be " a million different things" that can change between DACs as well. Much like different class, we have different models of DAC chips: AKM, ESS, Burr Brown, custom's usually found in high-end units, etc. What type are we using? Delta Sigma, rail-to-rail, etc.? What about analog filters and output stage?
Now, we haven't even got to the actual job of a DAC that determines a system's performance: resolution, max sampling rate, monotonicity, THD, noise, phase distortion, jitter, etc. The list goes on with what these little chips have to do and convert while passing this signal. And with all that, we have a device that has more work to do than amplifying the signal. Which also means there are a multitude of factors that will change and alter that signal for better or for worse before it is even amped.
Any input signal, albeit digital, will introduce timing differences that will affect sound output. More expensive DACs have something to reclock the data or sync its clock with the source of the digital signal. This will lead to more accurate sound playback although this comes at a much higher cost to the user. So, no, there isn't a "very early" plateau for cheap DACs. Even a DAC approaching $1k will yield benefits not found in something a fraction of its cost. How much that matters to is the differing factor. But in this hobby, we all value diminishing returns differently.\
Also, tube DACs are not that uncommon. They're just typically pretty expensive and have a high dollar amount for entry level gear so most look past them. Most who are looking to drop $1,500 on a tube DAC have a rather extensive setup already and are looking to add a sidestep to their system. I tend to see them more in home theater audio (they can be quite large) but there are plenty that are on the cheaper end for headphone systems. The Aune T1 is a prime example.
billy12347
23
Apr 15, 2018
jaydunndidditThe dac chip, again once you get over the $200 mark, makes just about no difference to the sound. There may be some tiny changes, but that won't come anywhere near the difference an amp would introduce.
Distortion numbers are well above the acceptable limits on all but the cheapest dacs, and an ODAC will sound just as good as a $1000 dac in a blind test.
Sampling rates make 0 difference, very few people can tell the difference between a 192kbps mp3 vs a 320kbps mp3 which is a much bigger change in the amount of information than the sampling rate of said file.
For a dac, a big change in the sound is very minimal, unless it's designed to make a bigger change, like with a filter. With an amplifier, the the difference in the signal before and after it goes through the circuitry is huge, and any tiny imperfections in the amplifier will be increased 10000x with the rest of the signal.
The aune t1 is not a tube dac. That's a ss dac with a small class a tube amp built in.
Obviously the source signal is important, but if the job of your device so to do as little to the sound as possible, the differences between dacs should be very small, as we've gotten to the point that cheap dacs put out really good numbers, and there's not much reason to go super expensive unless it has some features you really like or if it colors the sound with a filter you want. If your dacs are coloring the sound so much that you notice it, you either have really badly made equipment, or you spend a fortune on a dac that has a filter you like. For $200 an ODAC will do the job for just about any headphone, and if you want any meaningful change in sound, you're better off changing the speakers/headphones, then your amp, and the dac should be the last thing you look to change, except for cables.
I challenge you to notice a difference between an ODAC and a $1,000 with a blind A/B test. Because I have. And there is a minimal difference, to the point that me and 99% of other people wouldn't notice a difference.
For $200 an ODAC will do the job for just about any headphone, and if you want any meaningful change in sound, you're better off changing the speakers/headphones, then your amp, and the dac should be the last thing you look to change, except for cables.
jaydunndiddit
3262
Apr 15, 2018
billy12347First off the Aune T1 is a tube dac with a SS amp. That's just a fact. You obviously need to read more about the unit as you don't seem to know much about it.
2nd, it's asinine to think that someone cannot discern between 192kbps and 320 kbps. Again, of you're using a capable DAC, it will highlight the flaws of the lower bitrate file and make them glaringly known.
The issue that's killing me with your rebuttal is I don't think you fully grasp what a DAC does. If my amp is mated properly to my headphones, then it boils down to the DAC and source. If I'm playing, FLAC, DSD, MQA, etc. those will all be processed and filtered differently depending on the DAC and implementation irrespective of the sampling rate and resolution. And again, depending on said chip and implementation will determine the clock and noise to deliver a signal as close to 1:1 as possible.
Again, I never said the PURPOSE of a DAC is to change the sound, only that it will have more impact on the signal being delivered compared to an amp. Which it will.
Just because you can't tell the difference, or better yet don't care, is your prerogative. But to suggest that an amp will somehow deliver an entirely different listening experience is beyond me. If an amp is delivering power to it's equipment as intended, the only thing left to alter the signal would be the DAC, whether that's from a cellphone tablet, receiver, or external unit.
And yes, I have been able to well the difference as well as many others in this hobby. ESS chips have their sound same as a Burr Brown or Multibit. That's why I have the stance I do as comparing to my buddies expensive rig and keeping the amount and source files the same, the DACs all had their own personality that contributed to the overall sound than comparing amps. Just because you're underpowering your equipment with poor amps and not delivering their max voltage for the source is the problem. As long as that criteria is met, their will be no discernible difference between SS amps with the same power outputs. That's my point.
billy12347
23
Apr 15, 2018
jaydunndidditI know what a dac does, you don't seem to know what an amp does. An amp makes a wave bigger. In that process it goes through a bunch of stuff which, if working perfectly with no outside influence, will spit out a wave that's exactly the same as the wave it got in, but 10 or 100 or 1000 times bigger. But no amp is perfect, it's just about physically impossible. So even the best amp is going to color the sound, however minute it will be. And in order to get close to that you have to have some clever engineering, which can be expensive. You show me a perfect amplifier that doesn't color the sound at all, here's a hint, you can't. Just because you don't notice the difference between your equipment, doesn't mean it's the dac. An amplifier makes a bigger difference, and Physics agrees with me.
You don't seem to know how a dac works, a dac takes 1s and 0s and turns them into an analog signal. The format it takes it in makes 0 difference to the dac chip, the only difference is how fast it processes the information and how clean the waveform it generates out the other side is. And the worst a normal dac puts out with a 320kbps mp3 at 44.1khz is indistinguishable to a human hear, except for maybe a baby, because their ears are better, to any other format. You may think you hear a difference between a dac that's supposed to be neutral, and another day that's supposed to be neutral, but that just makes you a fool if you spend any money to try and back it up. A dac makes imperceptible changes to the sound once you get above the $200 range and anyone that tells you otherwise has probably already spent the money on a dac that is too expensive and convinced themselves their investment was worthwhile. I don't care if you agree with me or not, I just don't want any person that's new to this hobby to see your (frankly wrong) opinion that a dac will effect the sound more than an amp and base any decisions off of it.
I'm 90% sure you're a troll at this point, so I'm done responding to you, because you're either set in your ways, or trying to make people angry, and I'm not going to convince you otherwise.
jaydunndiddit
3262
Apr 15, 2018
billy12347I feel the same as you. Not wanting others to see your views on amos and needlessly buy equipment they don't need. As long as the amp can power their equipment to it's spec, nothing else matters. It's people like you that buy more amp than they need for absolutely no reason.
After that, the DAC is what will make the most difference in their chain as seeing without the DAC, the amp doesn't have any signal to amplify. And how that signal is processed BEFORE it gets to the amp is important. And how you've come to the subjective point of anything above $200 is a waste, is laughable. That's YOUR perception. So, you'd rather waste money on another amp that otherwise supplies the same ample power to your gear, or go with a different DAC that can play DSD or MQA files and/or filter them differently? That's the point I'm making that you can't seem to grasp. And it's an important one. The signal being amplified means nothing as the DAC is the one processing and passing it. If the amp stays the same, any reasonable person could tell the difference from the DAC in a cellphone, to an Oppo HA2SE, to a Schiit Gungnir Multibit. The fact that you think Delta-Sigma and Multibit sounds the same is remarkable. DACs may all just convert 0's and 1's but they all don't do it the same way before sending a signal. When you're dealing with clocking errors, that jitter is going to alter the sound no matter how it's amped. And the better the DAC, the better it's going to reduce this packet loss as well as other noise introduced in the signal.
Lastly, the only troll here is you as you didn't even know the Aune T1 is a tube DAC. That alone shows your ignorance on the subject.
alvarg
235
Apr 16, 2018
billy12347i agree, i got the 02 odac and the only difference i could hear between the o2, my computer on board and my phones output was slightly less distortion, slightly better bass quality and overall just volume, someone could setup a $4000 amp/dac vs a $1000 amp/dac vs the o2 odac in a blind test and I'd be shocked if anyone could tell which one was the $4000 amp/dac, providing none of them were a tube amp, the only thing that might make a noticeable difference, is if one of them matched extremely well or extremely poorly to the headphones used.
legobatman
93
Apr 16, 2018
jaydunndidditgonna have to go with @billy12347 here.
just as a sanity check - digital audio delivery through DAC and USB is super mature technology and more or less undifferentiated. companies will build an impressive spec list for high-end audio companies to fit their branding / marketing purpose but the basic function of digital to analog conversion has seen incremental improvement at best. this commoditization drove a bit of consolidation for TI/Burr Brown and Cirrus / Wolfson.
Cirrus, TI, AKM, Analog Devices, Toshiba, ESS, Maxim, On Semiconductor, Vishay probably own about ~80% of this niche market, bid for the same contracts, offer similar capabilities, price points etc. i would be very surprised if there was a material difference between them in terms of technological abilities in audio processing.
so @Jotunn, the DAC in your MacBook is good to go. that said, if you want an external DAC cause you want to play around with gear, that is ok too. i have my collection of DACs, AMPs, and DAC/AMPs. just realize it is not needed for your original stated purpose of MB > CTH > Elex and the DAC components will likely be made by one of the OEMs i listed above, with similar DAC abilities but different power management features.
side comment - bringing up DAC clocking errors and jitter to showcase the importance of the DAC's impact on sound is kind of weird. that is akin to saying 'this laptop offers a great computing experience because the keyboard does not lag and the space bar works every time'. technically it is true but it just sounds funny. if you work for Cirrus Logic, AKM, ESS etc. i would hope these basic design issues would have been ironed out before the sales team arrived. most of the time these guys will throw out some impressive THD stats or its power sipping ability at xxkHz sampling. good sound is table stakes.
jaydunndiddit
3262
Apr 16, 2018
alvargAnd that was my point is that there is a difference. How much that difference matters boils down to the individual and their gear. I have a lot of gear that is very sensitive so any pickup in the signal sounds just plain horrible and really ruins the listening experience. Even when I've done DAC switching with my buddies gear, there were perceivable differences when using the same amp, headphones, and source files. Even from my own experience choosing a DAC, when I sampled the Mojo, various iFI DACs, and Oppo, when used only as a DAC through my amp they all sounded differently. That was pretty clear. In the end, I settled with the iFi unit as it matched the best with my amount and current headphone offerings and supported MQA.
jaydunndiddit
3262
Apr 16, 2018
legobatmanNot really. Jitter and clock errors are the main distortions you would audibly hear in the signal coming over. If you've ever heard a poor DAC with sound that comes off as 'warbly' then that's pretty much clocking errors. Really, the 2 main reasons to get a DAC are background noise due to hiss and jitter. Both of which sound awful through a signal.
alvarg
235
Apr 16, 2018
jaydunndidditEver done a blind test? To backup your claims. To this you'll probably say yes even if its a lie
jaydunndiddit
3262
Apr 16, 2018
alvargI just said above I had done testing with my friends gear as he has switchers. When I sampled all the gear I bought I didn't do blind testing but just spent a lot of time going back and forth thru all the units. Believe what you want, but unless you've out in the seat time and tried to listen for yourself then you really can't be one to judge. Never once did I claim a $4k DAC would be this and that, onky that a DAC makes a difference in the signal. Even more so if it's a tube DAC. Personally, I think you should sample more gear to understand what I'm talking about. And I don't say that in a rude way. The best test you'll get is with your own ears but until you do it yourself it'll never click. Take your ODAC with you to meets or friends and just compare it against other gear and amps. That's what I did and I noticed differences when the amp was kept the same.
alvarg
235
Apr 16, 2018
jaydunndiddit"The best test you'll get is with your own ears" ears and audio are easily biased, people often believe they hear changes or improvements in audio that once they do a blind test can no longer tell a difference
jaydunndiddit
3262
Apr 16, 2018
alvargAnd again, I said I could. While listening critically to orchestral and piano pieces, the differences where much more obvious than listening to pop or rock. I just think you should try the same for yourself to get where I'm coming from. You're blindly judging me when you haven't even gone through the same scenarios or listening tests. To each their own, I suppose.
alvarg
235
Apr 16, 2018
jaydunndidditIm not judging you im claiming that your perception of an audible difference was biased.
jaydunndiddit
3262
Apr 16, 2018
alvargHow am I biased? Using the same chain and swapping only DACs and perceiving the sound changed is biased? Again, I implore you to listen to something like the Mojo and a Dragonfly Red/Black or an iFi DAC. They don't sound the same. Maybe you don't care about their incremental differences but if someone is spending $700+ dollars on headphones one would assume they care about getting every ounce out of their music.
alvarg
235
Apr 16, 2018
jaydunndiddityou answered your own question. " Using the same chain and swapping only DACs and perceiving the sound changed is biased?" if you don't do a blind test then yes any difference you hear when switching between different dacs and amps isn't accurate. try reading nwavguy's blog post called subjective vs objective. i'd link it myself but i'm not sure how massdrop feels about linking external webpages.
jaydunndiddit
3262
Apr 16, 2018
alvargHere's the article I believe you're referencing: http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/05/subjective-vs-objective-debate.html.
The fact of the matter is even between the Mojo and the iFi DAC, they are not doing the same thing to a DSD file. That's what you don't seem to understand. If they are both filtering the track differently than how can one expect them to sound the same? That's why I keep saying until you've heard for yourself say a Mojo and compared ti to your ODAC, you really can't understand what I'm saying due to context.
In the article, he is talking a lot about cost vs perception. Again, I never stated ANYTHING about costs and better, high-end gear. I stated that DACs can and will sound differently much like a properly built SS amp. In the article, he states much of the same in a comment below: " NwAvGuyMay 24, 2011 at 12:47 PM To Anonymous at 9:13 AM, Devices like the E-Mu 0404 (I have one) are more oriented towards recording than playback. The 0404 requires proprietary software drivers, has pro-audio connectors, and makes an especially poor headphone DAC. It's a very different product than most audiophile DACs. There are plenty of inexpensive DAC chips that can perform very well these days. But the implementation is where a lot of companies get something wrong--like NuForce did with the uDAC-2. So without proper measurements, you really don't know if a company got it right or not--regardless of what chips they used. For example, there are relatively large measurable differences in jitter performance between DACs--especially via USB. Some people seem more sensitive to jitter than others and it's not clear at what level jitter becomes audible. So I would be inclined to choose a DAC with lower jitter--as verified by independent measurements (versus the manufactures claims). "
And
"NwAvGuyMay 31, 2011 at 8:21 AM Hey Satellite, thanks for the comments. I added the link. I wouldn't say "complete objectivists" always buy really cheap gear. I own a Benchmark DAC1 Pre and other spendy gear. And I know plenty of hardcore objectivists who have invested well into 5 figure territory. It's not so much about cost as it is paying for tangible benefits--the Benchmark has better measurements, for example, than anything I know of for under $1600. Someone else might pay for something because it's well made in the USA and has a long warranty."
As I stated above, depending on the OP's need and preference, a DAC would benefit the Elex. That was the main question posited. If he's spending that sort of coin for headphones, any DAC would be an increase in fidelity than his Macbook, especially if he plans to listen to Tidal MQA or DSD files. One would assume that with a quality headphone, they would want the best signal delivered through their chain.
alvarg
235
Apr 16, 2018
jaydunndidditYou're irredeemable, you've repeatedly state something like "That's what you don't seem to understand" i wasn't talking about any specific amp or dac, or dsd, but not only did i read that article i also watched a panel explaining the problems with subjective testing, and how you need to do a double blind test in order to prove even to yourself that you can hear an audible difference, and to repeat what i said earlier in the testing i've done myself some subjective some blind, i haven't heard audible differences between external dacs, and only very slight differences between external amps at similar price points.
To answer your question though, regardless of the filtering used the objective with any dac or amp is to be as transparent as possible, and any noticeable difference between dacs or amps that can't be electronically measured needs to be blind tested to remove the possibility of a psychological bias (aka you believe you hear a difference because you see two difference devices and therefore there must be one) or (well this one is playing mp3 and this one is playing flac so there must be a difference).
Perhaps you should go back to the blog and read the section labelled involuntary bias and the need to believe. when you say stuff like "If they are both filtering the track differently than how can one expect them to sound the same?" and also in regards to this "until you've heard for yourself say a Mojo and compared ti to your ODAC, you really can't understand what I'm saying due to context". unless i was able to compare them in a blind test anything i heard that was different could be put down as a psychological bias of simply believing theres a difference.
In another video i watched one of the guys in the video state that he had an old broken amp and a new expensive amp and put a big fake switch in front of them and all this switch did was make a click up and down, it didn't swap amps, he tested many of his audiophile friends and they all said things like the expensive amp sounded more natural, Warmer, Cleaner and any other descriptive word you can think of, Yet everything they heard was through the same amp at all times. So please do yourself a favor instead of arguing with me (I don't know whether your doing it to justify purchases or because you genuinely believe you are right), there is ultimately no harm or cost in doing a blind test with audio products like dacs and amps, because in the long run, no matter what the specifications says or what you are putting through it, or what you or I believe if you can not on any song under any circumstance notice an audible difference in the blind testing then what does it matter.
jaydunndiddit
3262
Apr 16, 2018
alvargI actually don't own an expensive DAC. I've clearly stated more than one I own an iFi DAC that was under $200. The onr who seems incredibly biased here is you. You're so adamant about there being no differences that's what you fervently believe no matter what. That is your unmoving bias you keep injecting here.
Even with the comment I posted, from NWavguy that you mentioned, he states the same thing I mentioned above regarding jitter and how individuals perceive that and how DAC performance can affect that. Yet somehow, you skate over that to talk about all of this other stuff outside the realm of what the OP originally asked.
I have nothing to justify here except a conversation. Just like I said before, just because YOU can't perceive a difference and aren't sensitive to jitter or hiss like others does it diminish the benefits of a good DAC in your audio chain. You keep bringing up cost and yet again I have stated nothing about the OP buying stupidly expensive or exotic equipment. Just that a DAC would present changes in his chain as they already own the CTH which will power the Elex just fine.
I just feel like you're being obstinate even after seeing quotes from NWavguy and reading the article. As far as I know, maybe I'm more sensitive to jitter as he States. And maybe you're not. I know I am with hiss and my very sensitive IEMs and have equipment to counter that. The only point here was to help the OP answer their question about whether a DAC would be needed over their MacBook. And the consensus overall is that one would. Especially if their chasing the best quality they can get. Which, one would assume in spending almost $1k on an amp and headphones. A DAC would be the next logical piece to their chain. And depending on what they want to hear or grow, the DAC they choose matters. If they all sounded the same then it would be a non-issue but just like amps, they have their own quirks that the OP may hate or love.
alvarg
235
Apr 16, 2018
jaydunndidditI didnt say there is no difference, if i did my mistake what i meant was, outside of hard factual measurements, subjective differences need blind testing.
Arisrock
8
Apr 16, 2018
billy12347Both amps and Dacs make a Big difference with great headphones, and even more with great speakers. This conversation about what makes more difference is like arguing whether better tires or more horsepower will give better laptimes. Depends on the track.
alvarg
235
Apr 17, 2018
ArisrockYou say big difference, but are you backing this up via subjective testing, as in you bought an expensive amp/dac and compared it directly against your cheaper dac and convinced yourself/believed that the more expensive dac is better. Or did you blind test an expensive amp vs a cheap one where you don't know which one the sound is playing out of.
I'd be quite surprised if you blind tested gear and could actually notice a difference, excluding any cheaper gear under $100-200,
Arisrock
8
Apr 17, 2018
alvargI own an Auralic Vega, Mytek Brooklyn, Chord Mojo and Audioquest dragonfly red. i use 2 Rigs at home. big rig with Naim . Small rig with Microzotl headphone amp. the Vega is in a different league. Making beautiful organic music that would be hard to tell apart from a good LP setup. The rest sounds a tad digital. Mytek sounds great will all recordings. Mojo has a sound that works with some music not all (when used with speakers) Mojo vs Mytek very similar with headphones though. Dragonfly is not in same league. Misses some Of the feeling the others bring to great recordings when used with big headphones. Works great with IEMs. . DACS , like amps though have diminishing returns, that pay off - similarly to great wine, to those who get it. And that takes time. Don’t go buying an Auralic Vega if youre upgrading from having your MacBook driving your amp. Just get a dragonfly As anything will sound like a big improvement.
luckybaer
100
Apr 17, 2018
ArisrockNah... just audition the most expensive summit-fi stuff you can afford. Pick out the one(s) you like the most, check you checking account balance or (heaven forbid) your credit card's credit availability. Take the plunge. You'll look really cool when you list your gear in your signature at the audio forums, and you'll avoid useless incremental purchases AND you'll escape low-fi Hell and mid-fi purgatory. Woooo!
Jackula
1743
Apr 17, 2018
alvargThere is definitely a difference between DACs, often more so than difference between amps. Spending more on a DAC usually get you a technical improvement but "better" is subjective.
Even between the ODAC, Modi and Aune T1 (RCA out) which are all around the same price, the difference is easy to tell. Out of these 3 I prefer the Aune over Modi over ODAC, and that's in descending price order.
Price doesn't really correlate with enjoyability, but I find it does play a role in technicality. That is, if you consider a $2K Benchmark DAC, it is technically more transparent and resolving than the Modi, but the oval tonality of the $100 DAC is still more enjoyable.
Something to note though, most beginner audiophiles cannot tell the difference between DACs, this is not a criticism but just an observation. I was a beginner audiophile once and couldn't tell the difference between a $50 DAC and a $1000 one. I bought a Schiit Bifrost many years ago and sold it within the same week because it made zero difference to me.
Once you know what to listen for, suddenly everything will start sounding different. It's not about having golden ears, it's a natural evolution over time.
alvarg
235
Apr 17, 2018
JackulaLol if you say so
shans
41
Apr 18, 2018
alvarg
search
YoU CaN't bELiEve uR eArs UnLESs YoU BLinD tEsT
alvarg
235
Apr 18, 2018
shansHahahaha perfect
rastus
1391
Apr 18, 2018
ArisrockThanks for actually walking the walk, and sharing a bit. Made me read up; the 32/1.5MHz upsampling in the Auralic,, well, I just want to hear it... and the quirky tech in the Microzotl as well.
paulgb434
16
Apr 18, 2018
shansHAHAHHAHA YES I LOVE PLACEBO AND WASTING MONEY ON EXPENSIVE AND UNNEEDED DAC/AMPS
paulgb434This is my only piece of troll food for the today so don't expect a response after this... but if you actually tried some of the gear you might be able to form a valid opinion. Based on the fact you have bought exactly jack shit from this site and you chose to use all caps... I am confident you're ignorant in the arena in which you are trying to comment. Nobody NEEDS a single item offered on this site, it's full of things people WANT. I have zero care as to what people spend their own disposable income on. Amps, DAC's, and even cables (yeah I wasn't a believer for years) make a difference... almost none of them are night/day and every person must make their own choice as to whether or not the difference is A) Apparent to them and B) worth the cost
shans
41
Apr 18, 2018
paulgb434Looks like you're far away from home(/r/headphones)
paulgb434
16
Apr 19, 2018
ElectronicVicesI think I know a good amount about the area I'm commenting in. I'm kind of surprised you weren't "a believer for years". I see this kind of mentality constantly on Head-Fi, have you actually DONE blind tests between your cheaper Dac/Amps and more expensive ones?
People can spend their money on whatever they want, it just kind of bothered me that somebody would post such a low quality and annoying response to an informed and reasonable comment. There are many instances where somebody actually did perform a blind test and said they heard zero difference between equipment, https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/8d2h8g/with_sennheisers_hd_600_i_cant_tell_the/?utm_content=title&utm_medium=hot&utm_source=reddit&utm_name=headphones , here's one from today. This really surprised me, but the guy did an ACTUAL objective test yet he wasn't able to hear a difference in the 600s even though they're not the easiest thing to power.
This isn't an isolated case, there are many reviews, tests, and even sound demos like this if you look for them. I was never insulting this site or the products and I don't know why you're bringing that up.
At one point buying expensive audio components becomes questionable, if not completely subjective and influenced greatly by placebo. This is especially true with Dac/Amps because of offerings such as the O2/ODAC. IMO its almost completely a waste of money to buy DACS that cost over $100-150, and to a lesser extent the same goes true for solid-state amps.
I could kind of understand buying more expensive tube amps, but that's about it. When people are paying ridiculous prices for things that don't do better than their cheaper counterparts in measurements, it's time to do a sanity check and perform some blind tests. Expensive cables would be the most extreme example of this crappy spending, unless you could prove this otherwise??
shans
41
Apr 19, 2018
LOOL I was talking about how your comment is essentially how all of /r/headphones responds to anything against blind testing. And any talk about any gear is met with "did you blind test it though?"
Guess you reaffirmed that though.. Hilarious that you just jumped there! :')
paulgb434
16
Apr 19, 2018
shansYeah funny coincidence whatever.
" any talk about any gear is met with "did you blind test it though?" "
I don't think that is true. The community has a tendency to recommend fairly priced gear, and understands that placebo does exist in the audio world. I don't see how this could possibly be a bad thing. It's not like they circlejerk constantly about it.
alvarg
235
Apr 19, 2018
paulgb434what i don't understand is why people who enjoy high quality audio are asked have you blind tested your equipment, take personal offense to the question and their comments/reactions are something like "You should try it before saying theres no difference" (which is just defensive) or better yet the experience quote "I've been dealing with audio products for 10/20/30 years i know what im talking about" as to claim that using something makes you an expert on it, when really blind testing would cost you nothing but could potentially save you a lot, dependent on how much you drop on audio. And if you are so adamant that this dac or this amp sounds better then blind testing could confirm your statement. I could pour the same coffee into 2 identical cups and say one is more expensive coffee and one is cheap and audiophiles would say the more expensive one taste better.
shans/r/headphones AKA proof that group think is real... bunch of mostly inexperienced users looking for validation of their choices from the community while simultaneously searching for reasons to not spend more money on audio. Everyone's ears are different as are their desires and budgets... not a fan of the binary camps that seem to emerge on a lot of these forums. Sadly I see Massdrop going that way as it's user base has continued to grow.
paulgb434
16
Apr 19, 2018
ElectronicVices"/r/headphones AKA proof that group think is real" "users looking for validation of their choices from the community" "not a fan of the binary camps that seem to emerge on a lot of these forums"
I think you got /r/headphones confused with Head-Fi for a majority of these points. Anyways, just because a community differs from what gear and price ranges YOU look for in audio doesn't mean they're a bunch of "mostly inexperienced users". It's almost as if you went on /r/headphones once, started scrolling down, saw more posts asking questions rather than reviews and said "these are a bunch of group-thinking uninformed users" even though you never bothered to read the comments of any post that you saw and check out the answers that people have to offer to the questions asked on there. This is similar to judging a forum solely by the titles of each thread.
Apparently Reddit is a much more popular community. Because of this you will see more questions asked by beginners and budget advice than on more niche forums. This doesn’t make the community bad, the information that comes from the people that answer these questions is just as helpful and knowledgeable, and the users are more friendly as well.
I can’t understand your point about group think in the community, it’s probably one of the least circlejerky and most comfortable audiophile communities I know. No circlejerks, no enormous hype over products (literally the opposite of group think in audio), very good recommendations for beginners as well, lots of resources and info on the sidebar. The simple fact that objective measurements are widespread and that blind tests are supported and recommended makes this place the literal opposite of a group think community.
“Everyone's ears are different as are their desires and budgets”
/r/headphones is much more budget-oriented than the likes of communities like Head-Fi. I have absolutely no idea what you’re trying to prove using this statement against /r/headphones, they are budget-friendly and versatile.
tunejunky
24
Jun 26, 2018
billy12347not true. both deal with basic electrical properties (i.e. conductivity, resistance, capacitance) and each of those properties affect sound directly and audibly.
in fact, in ALL audible differences, between ALL components, basic electrical properties create The Largest Single Difference in Sound.
Rosiebar
126
Jul 11, 2018
luckybaerYes. But can you avoid endless audiofile discussions on half truths and subjective misinterpretations in doing so?
luckybaer
100
Jul 11, 2018
RosiebarWorked OK for me. Just chilling and enjoying the music. 😃
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